Questions regarding Maricopa CC's Nursing program - page 8

issue resolved - and no useful information in my posts, hence no need for it here... Read More

  1. by   cardiacRN2006
    Quote from CrazyPremed
    I can definitely understand the philosophy behind not using GPA's and NET scores for acceptance to CC's.

    Realistically, the nursing programs ARE competitive, and to be fair, GPA and NET scores should factor into a decision. When there are 800 people waiting for 400 seats, those who have performed better should come first. I realize that people going to CC's do have to work and have other priorities. I understand this as a career changing adult applying to nursing school. I also realize that Nursing - like all science and health care fields - is rooted in academics and science. Every semester students are kicked out of nursing school because they can not academically handle the requirements. Honestly, should a student who has had to repeat A&P 1 twice, and micro once be given priority over the student with a Bachelor's in biology and two years work experience as a CNA? I think not.

    With the competition, I truly feel that nursing schools will become more and more competitive. If they were, those people doing well in school will not have to wait, and those who can't/won't do what they need to do or don't have the talent will get the extra time needed by being denied admissions. the caliper of nurses will rise, and the non graduating numbers will drop. To think that a student who - for whatever justified/nonjustified reason - can do poorly in the prereqs, but will become Sally Student once she is accepted to nursing school is a stretch. If a person can't/is not willing to learn Kreb's cycle or the physiology of the kidney, what makes us think that they will excel at narcotic medication administration or health assessment skills. Just my two cents.

    It would be interesting to know the correlation of medication/nursing errors to nursing GPA and net scores. I guess,

    Let the flames begin.

    CrazyPremed

    Crazy, I admit that I posted my previous comment without reading the rest of the thread! I'm a bad girl. But now that I've read your post, I'd like to comment.

    It was really well said and hit the spot. It's really all about the competetion.
    In regards to the nursing shortage, nursing schools and state boards all what to know how to 'fix it'. So they add more seats, increase entry, lower standards to pass (happened at my school, some should NOT have passed). They do everything but take a step back and evaulate the students coming IN.

    In addition to GPA, I do believe experience should mean something. I think the schools need to go back to the most important factor on admission--the interview!

    The goal today is "how many students can we admit", but it should be, "how many nurses can we graduate". My class started with 105. We graduated 66, and about 15-20 of those were last semester who had failed and LPN transition students. So that's is about a 50% loss of seats. How many qualified students would do anything for those seats? How many CNAs with a decent GPA are still waiting? I know a lot of people who failed, and quite frankly, I knew that they were going to fail off of jumpstreet.


    Of course, lower GPA students can make great nurses. High GPA students can make terrible nurses. The trick is finding the combo of the two. Higher GPAs correlate with being able to handle the coarsework of nursing school. Students with healthcare experience correlate with being able to handle clinicals. It's a match made in Heaven!



    But, to anyone who thinks that being a nurse is not an acedemic thing, that it's all caring and not science based is fooling themselves. I'm thinking harder and studying more as a nurse that I ever did as a student.
    Last edit by cardiacRN2006 on Nov 17, '06
  2. by   cardiacRN2006
    Quote from multicollinarity
    I agree with what you said about the 4.0 student, GPA and community college. Hey, that's me!

    I didn't mean that CC's are just for people with a less than competitive GPA. Although do they also help those in that situation, too.
    The thing is, now they are only helping people in that situation. Those who strive to get good grades aren't being rewarded (other than internally) for their efforts.

    I was admitted under the lottery plan. I turned in a poorly photocopied slip of paper that had just a few lines on it. Name, address, and program of interest (all health related professions used the same form). Nothing for experience, job history,...anything like that. But I turned this form in with my transcripts and that's it, and I got in the next semester. I called myself lucky, but I didn't know a lot of 4.0s who had to be waitlisted.


    It's too bad the lotto is gone. Now people are being told that they are admitted-to Fall 2009! That's just too long for people. Why should a perfectly good student such as yourself have to wait for 2009, when 50% of a class is failing because they didn't know they'd really have to study this much.

    Remember the butcher story? He thought because he cut up animal parts that he would be ok in clinicals. But clinicals are more than blood and gore (never actually). Clinical is where we type up 60 page care plans until the crack of dawn and then go implement them at 0645! Not easy for most, that's for sure.

    If people think that taking A&P and micro together is too hard, wait until nursing school. Once you're admitted, it never gets easier. Never!
  3. by   Multicollinearity
    Wow, Cardiac! The stats you list on the numbers of starting v. graduating just blows me away. Obviously the admission requirements aren't achieving a balance of ensuring that students can be successful in the program and allowing opportunity to students. The philosophy of open access to education at the CC level is SUPPOSED to mean that if you are qualified to be successful in the program, you get that opportunity. Even though there might be a wait.

    I have a soft spot for CC. When I graduated from high school, it was my CC that took me, even though I didn't meet the board of reagents requirements. When I graduated from high school, it was my CC that gave me a scholarship for tuition fees only because the financial aid office knew that I was in a desperate situation. I had to graduate from high school early because I was in an abusive home and had to get out. I couldn't get financial aid because my parents wouldn't sign the forms. Let's just say the University wouldn't even take me. There you go - CC meeting a need. We all know that CC tends to work better for adult students like you and me, too, for other reasons.

    I guess what I am trying to say is I support non-competitive admission to CC programs as long as the admission requirements are high enough to just about ensure success, as much as possible. Even if it means a bit of a wait. But when you've got that many students failing and the wait is 3 years...something must change. They need to raise the admission requirements and also perhaps dedicate some seats to students based upon GPA and other factors.

    Sadly, I don't think Pima will change the admission requirements because that would make them lose their Federal grant money. So I guess I would have to question if their priority is to educate students and produce nurses for the community? Or is it to get all the Federal grant money they can and the real world-results be damned?
    Last edit by Multicollinearity on Nov 18, '06 : Reason: Sorry so long winded. Too tired from studying for exams to explain my thoughts very well.
  4. by   cardiacRN2006
    I DO feel the same way about CC's. Like I said, if it weren't for Pima, I wouldn't be a nurse-period!

    I just wish they could set aside some seats based on GPA/experience/interview. Like 10%.

    But, no. They won't. And yes, it is all related to $$.

    Multi, I graduated HS with a 1.5GPA! So, trust me- I wasn't getting into the U either! If it wasn't for the CC, I'd have no education at all.
  5. by   AZmom
    Overly lax admission criteria may have something to do with a high failure rate. So may the way the nursing program is structured. With more and more students needing to work while attending school, and not enough programs which are offerred on a part time basis, students may find themselves chancing it with the traditional programs and sinking themselves when they can't handle it all.

    The BIGGEST gripe I have with MCCCD is the structure of their program. Once you're waitlisted, you've little or nothing left to take for courses. So you twiddle your thumbs and forget all you've learned.

    Once you get in, it's full steam ahead, rigourous workload. Now granted, I don't expect nursing school to be a breeze. Hardly. But I think they could lighten the load by offerring Nutrition, Pharm, Patho as corequisites eligible for enrollment while waitlisted or summers once you're in the program. Other CC's in Arizona offer those up in full or part as coreqs. I wonder if they see the failure rates that MCCCD does?
  6. by   Multicollinearity
    Quote from cardiacRN2006
    I was admitted under the lottery plan. I turned in a poorly photocopied slip of paper that had just a few lines on it. Name, address, and program of interest (all health related professions used the same form). Nothing for experience, job history,...anything like that.

    FYI it's still a poorly photocopied slip of paper. The first time I saw the application I was a bit surprised. The advisor handed me this grainy off-center zerox application, and I was like, you've got to be kidding. The application for a program that will change my life - the application that would educate me to be in a position to save lives (or seriously harm vulnerable patients!) is this piece of paper? A few basic questions on a grainy off kilter paper?
  7. by   mattsmom64
    Quote from AZmom
    Overly lax admission criteria may have something to do with a high failure rate. So may the way the nursing program is structured. With more and more students needing to work while attending school, and not enough programs which are offerred on a part time basis, students may find themselves chancing it with the traditional programs and sinking themselves when they can't handle it all.

    The BIGGEST gripe I have with MCCCD is the structure of their program. Once you're waitlisted, you've little or nothing left to take for courses. So you twiddle your thumbs and forget all you've learned.

    Once you get in, it's full steam ahead, rigourous workload. Now granted, I don't expect nursing school to be a breeze. Hardly. But I think they could lighten the load by offerring Nutrition, Pharm, Patho as corequisites eligible for enrollment while waitlisted or summers once you're in the program. Other CC's in Arizona offer those up in full or part as coreqs. I wonder if they see the failure rates that MCCCD does?


    I was in your position last year and I totally understand your frustration. Now, after being in the program I understand why they revamped the program and rolled patho into the program. I am part of the old program and took Patho while waiting to get in. I find myself sitting in patho this semester so I can review it. I am in block 2 and the way it is set up is that we have patho, pharm and process. The patho is about the disease process, pharm is about the drugs used to treat the disease process and nursing process is how we treat the patient with the disease process. The instuctors coordinated the classes so that when we are covering neuro in patho, we are also covering it in pharm and process as well. This has worked out really well because we are getting info from 3 different perspectives. If we had taken patho and pharm beforehand we would just have to review what we already did.

    I talked with my instructor from Block 1 who is now teaching the new program. She feels that this new program is really beneficial for the students. They use a standardized testing program to track how well the sudents are doing (not part of the regular grading process) and the students under the new program are testing very high which is indicative of well they will perform on NCLEX.

    If I remember corretcly, Nutrition is no longer part of the program. However,if you are planning on getting your BSN you will need Nutrtion and Patho so you can take thosewhile you are waiting to get into the program. I took Algebra
    and a couple of other BSN requirements while I waited. Also, Psych is no longer a prereq but a coreq so that can be taken while you are sitting out.......

    Hang in there.....you'll get in before you know it... Between finishing up my prereqs and waiting to get in it's been about 3 years and now I'm almost halfway through the program. It has taken longer than I thought it would (I promised my husband it would take 2 years tops lol!) but I am glad I did it this way. I think that I am retaining more information this way. I'm also able to extern which has benn VERY helpful!
  8. by   AZmom
    I never thought there might be cross-over. Good to know.
  9. by   Multicollinearity
    In a couple weeks I'll be officially accepted at Pima - to start in 2009 or 2010.

    I think I'm starting to change my philosophy about community college admissions. Here I sit, in finals week, working my butt off to keep my 4.0 while taking a full class load and working. I look around at my classmates. Many of them just don't care too very much. Just take that final exam and if the grade is a 'C'...OK! Why not? They'll be on the same waitlist.

    The injustice here is just stunning, especially when CardiacRN says that apprx. half are not graduating at the end of two years under these current admission standards.

    I'm just a bit disillusioned right now, working so hard, and for what? A BSN program I guess. I'd rather do the ADN.
    Last edit by Multicollinearity on Dec 11, '06
  10. by   cardiacRN2006
    You'll see soon enough how your dedication to your studies will pay off. Trust me. Those students who barely squeezed a low B in A&P will also be the ones who barely make it through nursing school.

    But, then there are those who barely squeeze through nursing school. They will be nurses, just like you, right? So you could apply the same disillusionment towards that as well. You could say, why struggle to earn a 4.0 in NS when some barely pass? We will all be RNs.

    However, when you strive for good grades in Pre-reqs, then you will stive for good grades in NS. Then you will strive throughout your career (Critical care class, CCRN, ACLS, etc...), because you are dedicated and used to setting high standards for yourself.

    So....it's all good. Don't worry...
  11. by   Multicollinearity
    Thanks for the encouraging words Cardiac. I was primarily referring to getting into a program. I'll always be curious and want to master the material I'm studying. It's the admissions game - that is where my frustration is.

    Last edit by Multicollinearity on Dec 11, '06
  12. by   cardiacRN2006
    Well bummer. Now my post looks kinda silly!
    Sorry, I had to work today, and I'm always goofy as heck when I get home.
  13. by   Multicollinearity
    Your post doesn't look silly. You are correct in what you said. I was just explaining what I meant. My point was also that I think I'm changing my tune about CC's, GPA's and admission competition v. my previous posts in this thread.

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