Work While In School?

jenniek · Apr 2, 2006

These associates programs (never heard of it until i came to the states) seem to be rat races to the end where you learn none of the whys behind what is done. Add to that the online BSNs which are total BS (clinically irrelevant) and the education is boring and lackluster. I can see why so many people here ask "why would i bother getting my BSN post grad?". My wife works as a clinical instructor for these associates classes and is constantly amazed by how little seems to be taught in regards to patho and the whys.
Do other people have experiences such as this? Maybe its just the local schools

I'm not sure what your experience is with nursing schools here, but not all programs are the same.

As far as a online BSN being clinically irrelevant...maybe so. Since the additional classes deal with community health, management, leadership. But it is a means for entering graduate school, and a hoop to jump through.

jenniek · Apr 2, 2006

If you have such a problem with the programs in the US, why not obtain your advanced/post graduate degree in Canada?

Mississippi_RN · Apr 2, 2006

Well said.
I agree there are lots of highly trained and educated ADNs as well. That wasent what i meant. What im saying is that the education seems aweful rushed and spends less time on hard science.
The BSN progams I have seen here are 60% theory and 90% if its post grad. This was very different at the school i went to. Our nsg school was very medical model oriented in that we did alot of hard science that was relevant clinically and little nsg theory.

It makes no difference whether you attended an ADN program or a BSN program. BSN programs just usually have more of the managerial aspects included. Both are hard, both are difficult to get into and graduate from, as they rightly should. Would you like someone to be able to get a hair up their rear end, jump in nursing school, jump out and start taking care of your loved ones?

As to whether ADN programs are as good in training nurses as BSN programs, you have to look at one vital point: us "Associate" nurses take the same exact boards that the BSN graduates take. No different. :idea:

Mississippi_RN · Apr 2, 2006

While in BScN school in Canada (4 year full time science degee in nursing) I worked a part time job in the lab as a lab tech, a part time job as a paramedic (1 (24) every 2 weeks) and ran my own buisness as a phlebotomist at drug stores 2 days a week.
Honestly, nursing school was not hard for me, but then i love school. Maybe it was because it was much more interesting than the majority of schools i find in the US where little medicine is taught and alot of theory, i dont know. All i know is we did 2 full year classes in patho & advanced patho along with a full year anatomy lab with cadavers (and many other things that arent offered at most schools here in the states). That may be why i did well, i enjoyed it. These associates programs (never heard of it until i came to the states) seem to be rat races to the end where you learn none of the whys behind what is done. Add to that the online BSNs which are total BS (clinically irrelevant) and the education is boring and lackluster. I can see why so many people here ask "why would i bother getting my BSN post grad?". My wife works as a clinical instructor for these associates classes and is constantly amazed by how little seems to be taught in regards to patho and the whys.
Do other people have experiences such as this? Maybe its just the local schools

Hmmm... well, maybe next time, when you are in the hospital, you should ask for only Bachelors prepared nurses to take care of you. I think you might find your options are kinda limited based on where you are. A good percentage of nurses nowadays are ADN grads. But while you have that BSN nurse in front of you, just go ahead and ask them "why" you are receiving that med, or that treatment, etc. You might be surprised to find that it is not the education a person recieves, but the amount they absorb and take in. I know people whom I graduated with (ADN program) whom did perfect on all the tests, retained the information until boards, passed...and now, couldn't tell you the difference between Demerol and Dilaudid. (I have rembered their names AND faces, BTW :eek: ).

SigmaSRNA · Apr 2, 2006

Though I have a BSN I know several peeps that graduated or are attending ADN programs. They arent such a cake walk really. They are almost just as difficult to get in as many BSN programs. Its basically most of the BSN nursing curric minus research theory type classes and minus all the englishes, music appretiation, history ect ect. These folks have to take science pre reqs anatomy and phys ect. So dont diss. There are a ton of CRNAs who went ADN to BSN to CRNA. These folk are just as capable in the clinical arena that any BSN. As far as the WHYS no Nursing courses BSN, ADN, LVN ect teach the whys? Thats why nursing is what it is. Every RN knows how and what to except as in I give this morphine to relieve pain, it may drop resp rate and BP ect. They can titrate effectively. However they have no clue of pathways effected, any modulation of neurotransmission ect.

I really have to echo this sentiment. My first job after getting my bachelor's was in a cvicu at baptist medical center in downtown san antonio,tx. I was one of only 2 BSN nurses on the unit of maybe 30 or so nurses, most of them having been in a diploma program prior to getting their RN. The most brilliant nurse I have ever seen (and I have 7 years of civilian and military nursing experience in ER and ICU) was a diploma prepared nurse who could explain heart physiology almost as well as my current A&P instructor. Second, I didn't learn how digoxin REALLY worked tell my 1st semester in anesthesia school. I didn't know what the flip a sodium/calcium antiport was. They don't teach that at any level of an RN program, so nobody truly learns the "whys". We just learned how not to kill somebody (or in some cases how to kill somebody) and when to call the doc when we see something isn't right. I give props to whoever passes that RN board exam no matter their degree because its all the same test.

MmacFN · Apr 2, 2006

Too true :)

I'm not sure what your experience is with nursing schools here, but not all programs are the same.
As far as a online BSN being clinically irrelevant...maybe so. Since the additional classes deal with community health, management, leadership. But it is a means for entering graduate school, and a hoop to jump through.

MmacFN · Apr 2, 2006

Its just not worth it.

I dont believe the grad classes are much different in Canada than in the USA. If i took the classes online there it would be a hassel to transfer them to the US as well. Might as well take them (same classes) here than there. It isnt a problem with the grad programs, i know what they are about.

I dont even have a problem with the US BSN programs i just see where there is room for improvement based on experience.

If you have such a problem with the programs in the US, why not obtain your advanced/post graduate degree in Canada?

SigmaSRNA · Apr 2, 2006

Well said.
I agree there are lots of highly trained and educated ADNs as well. That wasent what i meant. What im saying is that the education seems aweful rushed and spends less time on hard science.
The BSN progams I have seen here are 60% theory and 90% if its post grad. This was very different at the school i went to. Our nsg school was very medical model oriented in that we did alot of hard science that was relevant clinically and little nsg theory.

That's not necessarily true Mike. The only real difference between a BSN and an ADN is you don't take the Theory/Research type courses and you don't have to take 12 history/sociology/psych courses. ADN programs have a similar amount of the basic sciences courses as a BSN. ADN just takes all of the "fluff" out and gives you what you need to practice. An ADN might not be good if you want to develop a new nursing theory, right another book on the history of aeseptic technique of florence nightingale, or be CEO of a nursing home, but you can still be a good or bad RN.

MmacFN · Apr 2, 2006

Hye Lou

Thats why i said this was in regards to the local schools where i live and i do not know if they are that way everywhere. Ive seen the online BSN programs they are useless in the clinical realm and seem to be focused on management tracks.

Its just not focused that way in canada, the msn is. I am not making a cavalier judgement. I have been here, observed and worked as a clinical instructor as well as worked in the hospital the last 7 years. Its observation and my opinion. No more no less. I have a different perspective since i did my education in another country. Dont take offence make your argument.

This is the second thread in which you have referred to other people's educations as "lackluster." I'd be more careful about throwing around this cavalier judgment.

MmacFN · Apr 2, 2006

Hey MississippiRN

That is what is different here for BSN, managerial geared. I think one of the differences is that MSN in canada is the manager track.

The NCLEX is absolutely no indication of how good an RN you will be or how much knowledge you have. You might send anyone into an NCLEX test and (with prep) they may pass it. The same can be said of the paramedic NREMT-P boards. That dosent make them as good as you after all your education.

From my perspecitve, if the BSN program does alot of patho, anatomy, physiology, pharm & bio/micro you will end up with a better understand of the "whys" of medicine. If it is, as you say ( and others) that it is a management track, then i dont see it as better than an ADN program at all.

You guys have to remember that the USA is very different from Canada. All of your states are like little countries a with different rules, hence the "union" part of the states. In Canada, all the nursing programs across the the country have the same mandate and program. All nurses and paramedics do the same thing everywhere in the country with the same scope of practice. In CA alone, a paramedic passing from one county to another has a different scope of practice. Very very different. Apparently, this is the same thing with different nsg schools?

It makes no difference whether you attended an ADN program or a BSN program. BSN programs just usually have more of the managerial aspects included. Both are hard, both are difficult to get into and graduate from, as they rightly should. Would you like someone to be able to get a hair up their rear end, jump in nursing school, jump out and start taking care of your loved ones?
As to whether ADN programs are as good in training nurses as BSN programs, you have to look at one vital point: us "Associate" nurses take the same exact boards that the BSN graduates take. No different.

MmacFN · Apr 2, 2006

hehehe

well said.

Its all about motivation isnt it? Very true. Maybe the problem im seeing with new grads is the reason they are in nursing " i didnt know what else to do" or a quick buck.

Hmmm... well, maybe next time, when you are in the hospital, you should ask for only Bachelors prepared nurses to take care of you. I think you might find your options are kinda limited based on where you are. A good percentage of nurses nowadays are ADN grads. But while you have that BSN nurse in front of you, just go ahead and ask them "why" you are receiving that med, or that treatment, etc. You might be surprised to find that it is not the education a person recieves, but the amount they absorb and take in. I know people whom I graduated with (ADN program) whom did perfect on all the tests, retained the information until boards, passed...and now, couldn't tell you the difference between Demerol and Dilaudid. (I have rembered their names AND faces, BTW ).

jenniek · Apr 2, 2006

I dont even have a problem with the US BSN programs i just see where there is room for improvement based on experience.

It seems you are finding fault in the US nursing programs, as mentioned in previous posts. There is always room as a master's prepared clinical/theory instructor. The only way to make a change is to be the change.