When failure is labeled success; Socialized Medicine

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Specializes in Cardiac Surg, IR, Peds ICU, Emergency.

http://www.ilanamercer.com/Failure.htm

By design, a monopoly produces a different kind of worker. Unwilling to have their wages capped and freedoms restricted, the best inevitably leave. Mediocrity, unfortunately, gives rise to fewer malcontents and thus is a prerequisite for stability in the system. Put it this way: if a socialized system wants to survive, it must expunge the most driven and gifted from its midst. When wages, moreover, are tied to a negotiated deal with labour, rather than, in the case of a competitive market, to the individual physician's performance, the position of the mediocre practitioner is further reinforced.

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Wages aren't as bad as you seem to think. The top of the payscale in my home province is about $35 an hour for a staff nurse. The top of the payscale here at my hospital in California is about $38. Not a big difference since the dollars are almost even and the cost of living is a lot more expensive here.

Mediocre care is not encouraged there anymore than here. That's just wrong. Some hospitals in this country are bad (see King Drew on the news lately?), some are exceptional. It's no different in Canada.

The US doesn't need the Canadian system and vice versa. Both have pros and cons and each country's people can decide for themselves which they prefer.

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Specializes in Cardiac Surg, IR, Peds ICU, Emergency.
Wages aren't as bad as you seem to think. The top of the payscale in my home province is about $35 an hour for a staff nurse. The top of the payscale here at my hospital in California is about $38. Not a big difference since the dollars are almost even and the cost of living is a lot more expensive here.

Mediocre care is not encouraged there anymore than here. That's just wrong. Some hospitals in this country are bad (see King Drew on the news lately?), some are exceptional. It's no different in Canada.

The US doesn't need the Canadian system and vice versa. Both have pros and cons and each country's people can decide for themselves which they prefer.

King Drew is a gov't operated hospital; sort of proves the point the author was making.

There are RN's in California that are making a lot more than $35/hr.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/14/AR2006031401518.html

The median wage for RN's working in hospitals in this California town is $39/hr, meaning $39/hr is the value in the middle; half of the RN's make MORE than $39/hr.

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The arguments against socialized health care are hilarious. OK since public healthcare for everyone is such a bad idea, lets also get rid of police protection, fire departments, public schooling, etc. I have a hard time understanding why anyone can defend our current for profit system.

We pay on average more for healthcare per citizen than other countries do, so of course it is only natural to believe that our system is working. That is why our life expectancy and health are so much better than other countries... err wait. That argument doesnt float, how about this one--"Socialized health care is one step away from Communism!!!!!" There that is a lot better.

These insurance companies are a joke. Our healthcare dollars are simply making executives millionaires. Oh yeah, that congressman or rep that "loves his mother" probably loves his millions now.

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Specializes in Trauma acute surgery, surgical ICU, PACU.
King Drew is a gov't operated hospital; sort of proves the point the author was making.

There are RN's in California that are making a lot more than $35/hr.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/14/AR2006031401518.html

The median wage for RN's working in hospitals in this California town is $39/hr, meaning $39/hr is the value in the middle; half of the RN's make MORE than $39/hr.

....and would you like to talk about the cost of living in california??? :lol2:

I've read a LOT of nursing communities and a LOT of discussions about the job, the wages, the benefits, the quality of care.

The imperfections that exists in canadian facilities also exist in many american places. Yah, the US has lots of mediocre doctors and nurses too. The standard of living for nurses living in canada is on par with some of the higher-paid states. Because our costs of living are lower.

The fact that it ain't "perfect" doesn't mean it should be scrapped. It's still much more humane than a private system that doesn't take care of EVERYONE. imo.

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It's still much more humane than a private system that doesn't take care of EVERYONE. imo.

Humanity is not a concern in the states, as one of the original points that article points out, it is about avoiding bankruptcy and making a profit no matter what. Does that mean dumping confused patients on skid row? Yes. Does that mean denying someone potentially life saving treatment "because it is experimental"? Yes.

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....and would you like to talk about the cost of living in california??? :lol2:

I've read a LOT of nursing communities and a LOT of discussions about the job, the wages, the benefits, the quality of care.

The imperfections that exists in canadian facilities also exist in many american places. Yah, the US has lots of mediocre doctors and nurses too. The standard of living for nurses living in canada is on par with some of the higher-paid states. Because our costs of living are lower.

The fact that it ain't "perfect" doesn't mean it should be scrapped. It's still much more humane than a private system that doesn't take care of EVERYONE. imo.

I know I could never afford to buy a home here on my wage (I do make more than the median). My friends back in my smaller hometown in BC all own nice homes for less than 200K (all nurses in the province make the same wage regardless of where they live). A small home in my neighbourhood starts around 700K:) My dad just can't understand why I don't buy something down here:lol2:

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Specializes in Cardiac Surg, IR, Peds ICU, Emergency.
The arguments against socialized health care are hilarious. OK since public healthcare for everyone is such a bad idea, lets also get rid of police protection, fire departments, public schooling, etc. I have a hard time understanding why anyone can defend our current for profit system. quote]

In the US, 70% of fire protection is done by volunteers. Hardly a reasonable comparison.

The public school system is doing terribly, especially when compared to non-public education.

Our "police protection" is just as privatized as health care; thousands of private security officers are hired by businesses and communities to supplement 'police protection,' and the tax-funded police departments would never be able to fill in the gaps that are protected by private officers. If our "police protection" was as 'socialized' as Canadian health care, we'd be living in anarchy.

Additionally, there are a lot of things we are able to do to protect ourselves from crime, but are not able to do for ourselves when it comes to healthcare...i.e. I can put in an alarm system, lock my car, and buy a gun, but I can't stitch my own cuts or perform my own colonoscopy.

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Specializes in Cardiac Surg, IR, Peds ICU, Emergency.
....and would you like to talk about the cost of living in california??? :lol2:

I've read a LOT of nursing communities and a LOT of discussions about the job, the wages, the benefits, the quality of care.

The imperfections that exists in canadian facilities also exist in many american places. Yah, the US has lots of mediocre doctors and nurses too. The standard of living for nurses living in canada is on par with some of the higher-paid states. Because our costs of living are lower.

The fact that it ain't "perfect" doesn't mean it should be scrapped. It's still much more humane than a private system that doesn't take care of EVERYONE. imo.

The cost of living has nothing to do with this discussion. If we were living in a socialized system, the cost of living and real estate would be the same in California, but nurses would be paid LESS!

You are correct, there are mediocre doctors and nurses in the US, too, but the point of the article is that these kinds of providers are championed in the socialized system. Providers with higher expectations of themselves can excel in a free market system instead of being rewarded to the same lower incentive as the mediocre providers.

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How do these volunteer fire departments get the majority of their funding?

Has our public school system always done poorly or is it a more recent trend especially among the schools in poor neighborhoods?

In my opinion we already are close to living in anarchy in that money wields near unlimited power.

So since "police protection" is so inadequate here in the states, you think that these departments should be resolved?

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Specializes in Trauma acute surgery, surgical ICU, PACU.
The cost of living has nothing to do with this discussion. If we were living in a socialized system, the cost of living and real estate would be the same in California, but nurses would be paid LESS!

You are correct, there are mediocre doctors and nurses in the US, too, but the point of the article is that these kinds of providers are championed in the socialized system. Providers with higher expectations of themselves can excel in a free market system instead of being rewarded to the same lower incentive as the mediocre providers.

I work in a public health system. Mediocrity is NOT championed, and I think this article is wrong. I think the authors started with a viewpoint and just selected things to say that supported their viewpoint. It's plain ignorant to say that the best automatically flock to the private system, and that we are left with the dregs. It's ignorant of the realities of the system. The author provides NO evidence whatsoever that "mediocrity" is rampant in canada's health care.

And I think if you talk about wages, you have to talk about cost of living. If you don't want to talk about economic realities, don't mention wages. I don't think nurses would be paid less in a public system. The nurses in canadian provinces that have higher cost of living - do get paid more. Their unions negotiate more BECAUSE of the cost of living. So maybe you need to be aware of that fact.

This article makes a huge mistake. It talks about the quality of health care in terms of only one thing - money. Not actual measures of health and quality of the medical care provided. Spending more money to fix the problem is deemed "failure" - but what if it provides overall better success rates in terms of treatments, research, infection rates, etc....? The author does not seem to care about HEALTH care. I would suggest she go write about a factory or something.

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Specializes in Cardiac Surg, IR, Peds ICU, Emergency.
How do these volunteer fire departments get the majority of their funding?

Has our public school system always done poorly or is it a more recent trend especially among the schools in poor neighborhoods?

In my opinion we already are close to living in anarchy in that money wields near unlimited power.

So since "police protection" is so inadequate here in the states, you think that these departments should be resolved?

When it comes to volunteer fire departments, it's not just about funding. It's about the fact that BILLIONS are saved because noone has to pay for the wages of 70% of the nation's firefighters! Additionally, the majority of their funding comes from private donation, subscription fees, billing (private owners and their insurance for fire suppression activites), bingo, raffles (some fire departments make fantastic amounts of money on car/gun/money raffles), and business revenue, such as social hall rental or running an ambulance service. Few of these departments were started with a dime of tax dollars.

I never said police protection was inadequate; I simply pointed out that the current system of police protection wasn't so 'socialized' as was previously implied, but was instead a public system that was heavily subsidized by private police protection.

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