What if all docs had to nurses first?????

MorganO · Mar 3, 2005

But, if you do want to come jump down my throat or treat me like you wouldn't spit on me if I were burning, I will not hesitate to write it up and remind you that an associate's degree does not qualify you to question my MEDICAL judgment.

:angryfire It is not always an associate degree nurse that may be questionning your medical judgement. They do hand out BSN and PhD diplomas in nursing. If it was an associate degree nurse that has lost their patience with you, I agree that some sort of recourse is needed. Imagine the frustration with the nurses who have to tolerate the mistreatment by another profession with no recourse. Most hospitals do not have a "no tolerance" policy and nurses (nor other paraprofessionals) have any way to correct the abusive behavior. Physicians, on the other hand, use the system to which you are reffering to and have recourse.

directcare4me · Mar 3, 2005

I've worked with really good doctors, really bad doctors, really nice doctors, really rude doctors who are good at the practice of medicine, really rude doctors who are not good at the practice of medicine. I've also worked with nurses who are good, not so good, rude, nice, etc. The attendings I work with are for the most part respectful and nice to work with; it's clear from time to time that they don't know all about "what we do", but it doesn't frustrate me or cause me any concern, because, I don't really know all about what they do either. I do know that I don't want to do it.

This is probably not going to come across like I mean for it to, but sometimes I think that nurses complaining or being frustrated because "they (doctors, management, etc) don't know what all we do" sounds like what insecure people would say. If you don't need their approval you don't care if they "know what we do". You just do it and go home after your shift. You have mature professional exchanges with the other members of the health care team knowing that each of you has a different part to play. You don't worry about wondering if they "appreciate all you do". You just do your part, and any misunderstandings on the part of those who are mistaken about the scope of your practice, or the amount of time it takes to do a certain task, you politely and professionally correct them. "No, that order is too vague, you need to be more specific, thank you", or "yes it always takes more time to draw up the Fentanyl than you would think, I went to work on it as soon as we hung up". Without defensiveness, without exasperation, just matter-of-factly.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant. But I really get frustrated with the attitudes of nurses sometimes. I think we are our own worst enemy in gaining respect and admiration sometimes. And we are SO GOOD at what we do, and we deserve respect and admiration from all members of the team, but sometimes we focus too much on what bothers us about the other guys. Most of the time, if you interact with someone professionally, and with the certainty that you ARE respected then you will be.

nursbee04 · Mar 4, 2005

But, if you do want to come jump down my throat or treat me like you wouldn't spit on me if I were burning, I will not hesitate to write it up and remind you that an associate's degree does not qualify you to question my MEDICAL judgment.
:angryfire It is not always an associate degree nurse that may be questionning your medical judgement. They do hand out BSN and PhD diplomas in nursing. If it was an associate degree nurse that has lost their patience with you, I agree that some sort of recourse is needed. Imagine the frustration with the nurses who have to tolerate the mistreatment by another profession with no recourse. Most hospitals do not have a "no tolerance" policy and nurses (nor other paraprofessionals) have any way to correct the abusive behavior. Physicians, on the other hand, use the system to which you are reffering to and have recourse.

(I assume you are quoting PAC's post in the first paragraph.)

Please, please please excuse me if I have misunderstood your post - If I have I apologize in advance - but:

Why would it be cause for recourse if an associate degree nurse "lost patience" or questioned a doc or PA? Why would you hold a fellow RN in the same setting to a different standard? I honestly hope that is not what you meant to imply. Again I apologize if I am off base.

Back to the OP's topic, I think it would be wonderful if both doctors and nurses could shadow each other. It's never a bad idea to have a better understanding of those you work closely with.

MorganO · Mar 4, 2005

(I assume you are quoting PAC's post in the first paragraph.)
Please, please please excuse me if I have misunderstood your post - If I have I apologize in advance - but:
Why would it be cause for recourse if an associate degree nurse "lost patience" or questioned a doc or PA? Why would you hold a fellow RN in the same setting to a different standard? I honestly hope that is not what you meant to imply. Again I apologize if I am off base.
Back to the OP's topic, I think it would be wonderful if both doctors and nurses could shadow each other. It's never a bad idea to have a better understanding of those you work closely with.

I'm sorry you misunderstood. I was trying to point out to the writer that he assumed RN's have an associate degree and was venting my frustration with his ability to address an RN's bad behavior, but that same nurse has no recourse when she is treated poorly.

I don't think that professionals need to shadow one another. Ultimately there should be mutual respect. The problem seems to be that physicians in our facility believe that they can cross the line with their frustration and there is no recourse from administration.

MorganO · Mar 4, 2005

I'm sorry you misunderstood. I was trying to point out to the writer that he assumed RN's have an associate degree and was venting my frustration with his ability to address an RN's bad behavior, but that same nurse has no recourse when she is treated poorly.

I don't think that professionals need to shadow one another. Ultimately there should be mutual respect. The problem seems to be that physicians in our facility believe that they can cross the line with their frustration and there is no recourse from administration.

Sorry I am new to this..

FranEMTnurse, CNA, LPN, EMT-I · Mar 4, 2005

Personally, I think it should be a requirement for them the first two years anyway. It might make them more compassionate and understanding with the nurses and the patients. Too many patients, including yours truly, are treated as though they're just another number for the money that winds up in their pockets.

nursbee04 · Mar 5, 2005

I'm sorry you misunderstood. I was trying to point out to the writer that he assumed RN's have an associate degree and was venting my frustration with his ability to address an RN's bad behavior, but that same nurse has no recourse when she is treated poorly.
I don't think that professionals need to shadow one another. Ultimately there should be mutual respect. The problem seems to be that physicians in our facility believe that they can cross the line with their frustration and there is no recourse from administration.

True, there should be a zero tolerance type of policy in place for ALL employees, but physicians will always be treated differently, because GOD FORBID they should take their services to another facility. Any other employee that goes over the line is disciplined and warned, and also "required" to apologize to the person they crossed the line with. Docs have to do something pretty bad before they are disciplined (screaming at a nurse) and even then they are not made to apologize.

On the flip side, a nurse at a facility I used to work at once questioned the route of a medication a physician wanted given. He said IM, but with the dose it would have caused the patient to have something like six IM shots at one time (this pt was a bilat AKA. She had an IV site!!!!!!!!!!!). So when she suggested IV instead of IM, he cut her off without giving her a chance to explain and refused to even listen to her rationale. So she took it to the supervisor, who took care of the matter and got it changed to IV.

Well guess who got disciplined the next day? The nurse. The physician felt she "stepped over the line" and purposely tried to question his judgement with the intent of making him look bad. The nurse was told to apologize and she did. (I don't think I could have.)

FranEMTnurse, CNA, LPN, EMT-I · Mar 6, 2005

True, there should be a zero tolerance type of policy in place for ALL employees, but physicians will always be treated differently, because GOD FORBID they should take their services to another facility. Any other employee that goes over the line is disciplined and warned, and also "required" to apologize to the person they crossed the line with. Docs have to do something pretty bad before they are disciplined (screaming at a nurse) and even then they are not made to apologize.
On the flip side, a nurse at a facility I used to work at once questioned the route of a medication a physician wanted given. He said IM, but with the dose it would have caused the patient to have something like six IM shots at one time (this pt was a bilat AKA. She had an IV site!!!!!!!!!!!). So when she suggested IV instead of IM, he cut her off without giving her a chance to explain and refused to even listen to her rationale. So she took it to the supervisor, who took care of the matter and got it changed to IV.
Well guess who got disciplined the next day? The nurse. The physician felt she "stepped over the line" and purposely tried to question his judgement with the intent of making him look bad. The nurse was told to apologize and she did. (I don't think I could have.)

:angryfire There are just too many of them big emptyheaded creatures around. I am one of the unfortunate ones who has one. :barf01: Bleah!! And then they wonder why they aren't respected. Yeah, right. I respect my ferret more than I do some of them creatures. It seems when we nurses do advocate for our patients we get in trouble, and yet we are taught to be advocates for our patients in nursing school. Then those ahem :barf02:

puffed up marshmallow headed professionals, whose licenses we are protecting, and who we are also advocating for due to the nurse practice act, stomp all over us.:angryfire Then they wonder why there's such a shortage of nurses. Okay I've given my :twocents:

, so I'll step off my soapbox.