What constitutes flunking out?

TexasCRNA · Oct 1, 2002

U-R sleepy,

ok you got me curious?? What gives with your program? You don't have to name the program but what is the deal??

You can't open the can without spilling it!! Lee

WntrMute2 · Oct 1, 2002

When you guys say "out with the second "C"" etc. Are you talking about per test or second "C" overall. I have a feeling you are probably talking about "C"'s on tests.

No, it is not quite that bad. after the first C in a semester you are on probation for life. The second C dismisses you. That said, if 2 Cs showed up on tests, you would be in trouble as most classes only have 3 tests that make up your grade for the semester.

apaphoenix · Oct 1, 2002

In my program after the second course grade of "C" you're out. Also, if you make a single course grade of "C" in either Pharmacology, or A&P during the second semester of didactics, there are two possible paths (based upon your perfomance in other courses). They will either dismiss you from the program, or you can start over at the beginning of the program on academic probation. This means that all the classes you've already passed must be taken again (not to mention you have to take out even more loans to cover the cost of yet another year of school).

phoenix:eek:

Roland · Oct 1, 2002

I once had a professor who boasted that even if he had the one hundred greatest scientists in the world within his class he would STILL use a Bell curve. To me a "C" should mean 50th percentile (as compared to your fellow students) and NOT failing. Within ANY group no matter how exalted they might be there will still always be a 50th percentile (unless by some irregularity everyone should score the same on everything).

kmchugh · Oct 2, 2002

Originally posted by Roland
I once had a professor who boasted that even if he had the one hundred greatest scientists in the world within his class he would STILL use a Bell curve. To me a "C" should mean 50th percentile (as compared to your fellow students) and NOT failing. Within ANY group no matter how exalted they might be there will still always be a 50th percentile (unless by some irregularity everyone should score the same on everything).

Roland, what you say on the surface may seem like a good thing. But consider a couple of different cases with the Bell curve. First case: Good classes. Most programs have pretty stringent admission requirements, so by the time a class is selected, the group admitted is going to be a "cut above average." True? But, using a Bell curve, and like most graduate programs, more than one C gets you booted, more than 50% of every class would end up flunking out. How would you like those odds, starting out? I know, you are a smart guy, and probably did better than 95% of your nursing class. So did just about everybody else admitted. So, what is normally a pretty competitive class anyway just got cut throat.

Second case: A poor class (not likely, but not statistically impossible, either). Suppose 10 people are admitted to a class, all of whom really aren't cut out to be CRNA's. Not very likely, but consider the potential. Since we are grading on a curve, at least some of them are going to get through. Do you want one of them providing your anesthetic for open heart surgery?

I personally think a straight grading scale is better. Set a standard, provide appropriate materials, teaching, and learning environment, then tell the students they must meet the standard.

Kevin McHugh, CRNA

AL bug · Oct 2, 2002

Kevin, I absolutely agree with having a straight grading scale. This summer in Health Care Admin classes, the instuctors (from an affiliated grad college) were assigned to our class. I would say they instructed but that would be quite the exageration. I have never been in such a subjective environment. It made me want to stab them. Just put the material out there, say what you want us to learn, and test on that information...what's the freaking secret? In one of the classes, I had earned enough points for an A, but was assigned a B, along with 10 others in the same situation...just because we couldn't all "get A's" How you like them beans? The university said this was ok because the instructor had presented the grading method in the syllabus. So I hate the Bell Curve and have never understood the advantage to using it.

Anyway, the anesthesia classes are so much harder, but I am at least glad to be learning pertinent information and be tested on that material. whew!

Roland · Oct 2, 2002

for getting C's. However, you are correct that if my logic of using a Bell curve were applied just as many people would probably flunk (albeit with D's and F's dictated by the curve) It is my contention that many of the people who are flunked out of school COULD make good CRNA's with additional instruction or perhaps being taught with a different approach. In any case the system is what it is and will not change because of my rants. It still irritates me. The way I look at it I am a "paying customer" at nursing school (be it CRNA or otherwise) and if I do poorly it is as much a reflection upon their teaching as it is my learning. If anything they should consider refunding my money should I not sufficiently grasp the material or at least let me retake the class at a discount.

I once took a PADI diving course from a local dive shop and this was their policy in the event I didn't pass the certification test. Of course it can be argued that there is a substancial difference between diving for yourself, and caring for others. However, the basic dynamics are the same we (the students) are customers paying really good money for a service (the school's instruction). I have the highest respect for my professors but I also let them know that I consider them to be working at least in part for me. My fellow students and me are the customers and they are the service providers. After all it is ultimately the students who are paying their salaries.

kmchugh · Oct 3, 2002

Originally posted by Roland
for getting C's. However, you are correct that if my logic of using a Bell curve were applied just as many people would probably flunk (albeit with D's and F's dictated by the curve) It is my contention that many of the people who are flunked out of school COULD make good CRNA's with additional instruction or perhaps being taught with a different approach. In any case the system is what it is and will not change because of my rants. It still irritates me. The way I look at it I am a "paying customer" at nursing school (be it CRNA or otherwise) and if I do poorly it is as much a reflection upon their teaching as it is my learning. If anything they should consider refunding my money should I not sufficiently grasp the material or at least let me retake the class at a discount.

Everything you say is correct, to a degree. Do some research on other master's level programs. All master's level nursing programs (that I know of) require students to earn B's or better. From a slightly different perspective, would you want a C student giving your anesthetic?

Yes, you are a paying customer at the school. But that analogy only holds so far. Your contention is that if you do poorly, then it reflects as much on their teaching ability as it does your abilities as a student. Not really, not if in a class of 10 if you are the only one doing poorly. To reflect on their teaching, a larger proportion of the class must be doing poorly. Otherwise, you just don't get the material.

And, if you are a paying customer, so are all your classmates. Is it fair for those paying customers to be forced to wait (certainly, they cannot go on, leaving you behind) while you receive additional instruction so that you better understand the material they understood first time around? I would hold that no, it is not. As for receiving a "discounted" education the second time around, simple economics demonstrate why this cannot be done. Whether it is the first or tenth time around in a program for a student does not matter. The cost of educating that student (materials, class space, instructors) remains the same. Yes, universities make some profit on teaching, but not as much as many people think. To teach you at a discount because you failed the first time around would end up costing the university money.

One other thing, I am using "you" in these scenarios for example only. I have no reason to believe that you would do poorly in CRNA school. On the contrary, you write well, and your posts demonstrate good ability to think critically. I personally think you would do quite well in CRNA school, if that were the route you chose.

Kevin McHugh, CRNA

Roland · Oct 3, 2002

the supply and demand dynamics are obviously much different between CRNA school and a PADI diving training class. Because of such things as accredidation, and legislation there are relatively FEW CRNA schools while there are MANY customers. It basically comes down to the fact that the eliteism which many professors portray rubs me wrong given that ultimately students ARE their customers. Few if any for profit businesses (espcially those which charge a great deal for their services) treat their customers with anything less than respect, and a certain degree of deference. Yet many instructors seem to think nothing of dismissing, or denigrating students almost capricously.

Also, I understand that from an economic standpoint we must have SOME way of distributing scarce resources in this case CRNA jobs. Grades in CRNA school are one way of accomplishing that objective. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that someone who gets a "C" or two in grad school would necessarily make a poor CRNA out in the field. George Bush was a "B" and "C" student throughout much of his life and now hold what might be argued is one of the most importent jobs in the world, yet I for one consider him to be a very good President (Al Gore was also a B/C student for all you Dems waiting to pounce)! In addition, things happen that can adversely affect test performance that have little to do with ability or even study habits. People experience car problems, family issues, and illness all of which can easily result in at least some tests being bombed. Furthermore, many classes are structured in such a way that one failed test could easily doom the student to a "C" or worse.

Obviously, there must be standards and some people will NOT meet those standards no matter what a school does to accomodate them. I'm just advocating a philosophy which says in essence "we will do absolutely everything in our power to facilitate the success of our students" rather than one which screams "swim or drown because there are twenty students waiting to take your spot." Less arrogence and more humility with the realization that all success is a blessing bestowed by a divine creator not personal brilliance is the attitude I'm waiting for schools to take. Maybe I should grab a chair and kick up my feet because it might be awhile!

shygirl · Oct 3, 2002

You know what they call a medical student with a C?

Doctor

loisane · Oct 4, 2002

A medical student who made Cs might be called doctor. But how many patients will he have when they learn he is not board certified because he couldn't pass the exams? Consumers now are well educated, and know that certification is some indication of quality, and they look for that, as well they should.

Education is a two way street. Schools and educators should certainly treat students with respect, and do their very best to teach. But students must hold up their end of the bargain, and do their very best to learn. An attitude of "pay your fee, get your C", or "if I am not achieving, it must be the teacher's fault" will not get you where you want to be as a health care professional. (Not that anybody on this board has those attitudes, but I have seen them elsewhere).

Not everyone is cut out to be a CRNA. In my experience, students who make Cs in nurse anesthesia school, have a difficult time passing the certification exam/boards. Programs do them no favor by allowing them to progress to graduation, if it can be identified early they are not going to be able to go the distance. The ideal thing would be not to admit them, but it is not always possible to make that assessment at admissions.

loisane

shygirl · Oct 4, 2002

Originally posted by loisane
A medical student who made Cs might be called doctor. But how many patients will he have when they learn he is not board certified because he couldn't pass the exams?

This IS passing the exams with a "C"