Veteran nurses antagonistic

HealthyRN · Mar 28, 2008

Doug, I'm sorry that you are experiencing this treatment. It is unfortunate and I don't really think that there is any excuse for it. However, I do have my own theories regarding why many veteran nurses may seem to be unfriendly/grumpy/mean to students and new nurses.

1.) Overworked: Have you considered that having a student or precepting a new nurse actually increases the workload? Not all nurses were meant to be teachers or are good at teaching others. Some facilities provide no formal training for being a preceptor. Taking on a student may really stress out some nurses, thus they react by being short with the student. Also, nurses are overworked in general! Being on the floor for 13+ hours is a long time and bedside nursing is hard work.

2.) Underpaid: Nurses are underpaid for the work that they do, but some facilities provide no or very little incentive for serving as a preceptor. Again, see #1 for why this is a problem.

3.) Dislike of career choice/work environment: I believe that some nurses are unfriendly to others simply because they don't enjoy the work that they are doing. Just look at these boards and you will see that many nurses are very unhappy with their career choice. Some nurses may take this out on other people. New nurses may be a good target because they are generally less assertive and less willing to react.

4.) Unhappiness in general: No matter what career you are in, there are always some people that are just unhappy in life and unpleasant.

I'm sure that there are a lot more reasons why this seems to occur frequently in the nursing profession. My advice would be to stand up for yourself and be assertive. Most of the time, these type of people will leave you alone if you show them that you won't tolerate such treatment.

SoundofMusic · Mar 29, 2008

LOL, Dhammond, perhaps you ought to take a look at one of our threads:

https://allnurses.com/forums/f224/hospitals-suck-orientation-289031.html

I'm with you. They have complained, and complained loudly, so now here come all the new grads -- problem is, we're not coming in too prepared and now we're just another source of extra work for them.

Still, one would think they could be a bit more welcoming. I think the above response says a lot.

I'm slowly reaching a point myself where I'm not going to take it anymore. Any of get them snippy with me and they're going to see it come right back to them. Not trying to be aggressive or anything, but I'm tired of bearing the brunt of their distress. It's not MY fault and I'm not going to take it, especially if I'm doing my best and working hard.

AZO49008 · Mar 30, 2008

I'm with you on that one, Doug. I call it BNS: ****** Nurse Syndrome.

I'm working in a hospital lab until I start nursing school in August (FINALLY, after a two-year wait) after spending 15 years in the corporate world.

I can't tell you the number of times I get orders printed out to draw labs from patients, go up to the floor to draw them and the RN charges in and says in an incredulous voice "Why are you drawing this patient? I canceled this order!" Of course, it's never said in an inquiring tone, but usually in an acusatory "what-the-hell-are-you-doing-you idiot" tone. In most cases they cancelled it maybe 5 minutes before the timed draw, in which case I have long since left the lab with the order in hand.

Or they'll order a vancomycin peak BEFORE a vancomycin trough and I have to call before going up to draw and point out the error and have them re-order it CORRECTLY. I usually get something like "well why can't you just draw it and change it in the lab?"

There's a whole host of other situations that bring out the nastiness in certain RNs and you know what? I just refuse to take it any more. My take on the situation is that these misanthropes continue to act like that because people LET them act like that.

I can take a brow beating just fine if I've done something to deserve it. But, I'm not going to take verbal abuse or intimidation from someone just because they're in a crappy mood.

So, when I run across nasty attitudes and hostility for no good reason I confront it. It usually goes something like this:

"I'm sorry, I sense some hostility from you. I'm not aware that I've done anything wrong. If I have please let me know. You and I are on the same team and our goal is the same thing: deliver quality care to our patients. So, unless I've done something to warrant your hostile reaction, lets just go forward and function as the team we're supposed to be."

In every case I've had to use that tactic, they back right down.

momof2nurse · Mar 30, 2008

I can't tell you the number of times I get orders printed out to draw labs from patients, go up to the floor to draw them and the RN charges in and says in an incredulous voice "Why are you drawing this patient? I canceled this order!" Of course, it's never said in an inquiring tone, but usually in an acusatory "what-the-hell-are-you-doing-you idiot" tone. In most cases they cancelled it maybe 5 minutes before the timed draw, in which case I have long since left the lab with the order in hand.
Or they'll order a vancomycin peak BEFORE a vancomycin trough and I have to call before going up to draw and point out the error and have them re-order it CORRECTLY. I usually get something like "well why can't you just draw it and change it in the lab?"

I can say something about this. When I was in nursing school, my instructor had the idea that for same clinical days, we would experience a different part of the hospital support system. One of these was the lab. They were very happy to have us since there's a longstanding underlying feud or maybe just bad feelings between the lab and the nursing staff. The lab thought they could show us student nurses what they do so we could appreciate them and it worked! My class were very appreciate of the lab employees and I respect them very much for all that do for us, the nursing staff.

I think it should be mandatory for different employees to all have a day spent in a different area so they could be in that person's shoes and see what they do in a day. I think there would be a lot more mutual respect and professionalism exchanged instead of complaints and verbal abuse! :up:

nursemike, ASN, RN · Mar 31, 2008

I can say something about this. When I was in nursing school, my instructor had the idea that for same clinical days, we would experience a different part of the hospital support system. One of these was the lab. They were very happy to have us since there's a longstanding underlying feud or maybe just bad feelings between the lab and the nursing staff. The lab thought they could show us student nurses what they do so we could appreciate them and it worked! My class were very appreciate of the lab employees and I respect them very much for all that do for us, the nursing staff.
I think it should be mandatory for different employees to all have a day spent in a different area so they could be in that person's shoes and see what they do in a day. I think there would be a lot more mutual respect and professionalism exchanged instead of complaints and verbal abuse!

On the other side of the coin, nurses are responsible for pretty much everything that happens with a patient. Lab misses a draw: nurse should have caught it and drawn it himself/herself. Pharmacy late delivering a med: med error on the nurse. Dr. screws up: nurse's fault. This morning, before I left, I had to count intakes on a patient because the aide didn't want to. It's her job, but if she doesn't do it, I'm accountable.

Precepting is another instance where the nurse is ultimately accountable for someone else's actions. If you don't give the orientee room to make mistakes, if you do it yourself so you know it's done right, you're "hovering". If you give them room and they mess up, it's your fault.

I don't mean this to be as defensive as it may sound. There are a lot of times when disciplines work collaboratively, when orientees are eager to learn and preceptors are happy to teach, when peers have each other's back. That's the case where I work, for the most part, and it makes a tough job a challenge that can be enjoyed, rather than a burden that has to be borne. Usually. Still, one tends to sigh when a phlebotomist tells you a pt with a GCS of 8 is refusing a blood draw, or blithely shrugs and says "I stuck him twice and couldn't get it, so you'll have to do it yourself." and you practically have to beg them to ask one of the other phlebs to try, or Radiology insists you send a pt on log-roll precautions down on a cart instead of his bed, because it's hard to fit the bed through the doorway (1/2 inch clearance on either side, just like the doorway to his room.).

Of course, there are some nurses who seem to be at the end of their rope when they roll out of bed, have no patience or sense of teamwork, and no respect for anyone. Again, one tends to hope they are all the more noticeable because they are the exception, just as is the case with other disciplines.

Pediatric Critical Care Columnist · Mar 31, 2008

nursemike, you've brought up a good point. The nurse is the only person involved with a patient who wears the hat of every other discipline as well as his/her own. We're expected to automatically pick up the slack for everyone else whenever the need arises, no matter what. No other discipline ever picks up our stuff though. At my hospital (a 650 bed quaternary care facility!) we don't have a pharmacist in the building after 2230 each day. And now they've taken away our night cupboard and our night dispatch person. If we need a non-stock med we have to call around the whole place looking for a unit where it is stock, and if that fails we call in the on-call pharmacist who is then paid $100 an hour from the time they answer the phone until they're back in their bed again. We already mix all of our own drips and mix and draw up our own IV meds (except for some antibiotics and transplant infusions). If the RT is busy or out on transport, we do the trach care, the nebs, the suctioning, the hand-ventilation. Physiotherapy on our unit is strictly a consultation thing... the nurse is expected to fit that in too, as well as ensuring that any orthoses are put on and taken off on schedule. We draw ALL of our own labs, every last one of them. Some of our patients are having hourly bloodwork, or serial cultures. Our nursing assistants aren't allowed to touch patients, so they can't help with turns, diaper changes, baths, anything. And because we're a university hosptial we are expected to train physicians, nurses, respiratory therapists, physio and occupational therapists, pharmacists and anybody else who comes into the unit. The RTs are the only group who are paid less than we are, and that's only by $0.70 to $2.48 an hour; they're responsible only for a single system... we've got the whole patient. So toss in a grad nurse who isn't ready to take on the whole patient and there's going to be some hard feelings.

imanedrn · Apr 2, 2008

nursemike, you've brought up a good point. The nurse is the only person involved with a patient who wears the hat of every other discipline as well as his/her own. We're expected to automatically pick up the slack for everyone else whenever the need arises, no matter what. No other discipline ever picks up our stuff though. At my hospital (a 650 bed quaternary care facility!) we don't have a pharmacist in the building after 2230 each day. And now they've taken away our night cupboard and our night dispatch person. If we need a non-stock med we have to call around the whole place looking for a unit where it is stock, and if that fails we call in the on-call pharmacist who is then paid $100 an hour from the time they answer the phone until they're back in their bed again. We already mix all of our own drips and mix and draw up our own IV meds (except for some antibiotics and transplant infusions). If the RT is busy or out on transport, we do the trach care, the nebs, the suctioning, the hand-ventilation. Physiotherapy on our unit is strictly a consultation thing... the nurse is expected to fit that in too, as well as ensuring that any orthoses are put on and taken off on schedule. We draw ALL of our own labs, every last one of them. Some of our patients are having hourly bloodwork, or serial cultures. Our nursing assistants aren't allowed to touch patients, so they can't help with turns, diaper changes, baths, anything. And because we're a university hosptial we are expected to train physicians, nurses, respiratory therapists, physio and occupational therapists, pharmacists and anybody else who comes into the unit. The RTs are the only group who are paid less than we are, and that's only by $0.70 to $2.48 an hour; they're responsible only for a single system... we've got the whole patient. So toss in a grad nurse who isn't ready to take on the whole patient and there's going to be some hard feelings.

Dang. I'd be miffed if I worked there too. Yeah... I'm convinced it's not the people that are broken, it's the system -- that whole "don't hate the player, hate the game" sorta' thing. Sure, there are plenty of nurses who stick around because they need the money yet hate their job in addition to everyone who isn't a seasoned RN, but... I think your situation is more common than most realize.

nursemike, ASN, RN · Apr 2, 2008

I do think my slightly grim portrayal of our situation is all the more reason to extend a hand toward those poor fools who are willingly climbing into the same boat. Feeling like everyone is out to get us is still slightly better than feeling like everyone is out to get me. Helping new nurses gain their legs is one way to recruit allies.

Even so, I think we also have to realize that "nursing unity" is never going to mean we all love each other, all the time. It's a cliche to say that new nurses need to grow a thick skin, but it's a cliche in large part because it's true. I found, and still find, that I don't necessarily learn a great deal from being told how well I'm doing. Sometimes the lessons that stick come from being told what a bonehead I've been--usually in a nicer way than that, but the point remains the same. So part of my responsibility is to be able to reflect honestly, well, yes, I was a bonehead. Now how am I going to avoid that mistake in the future. It's never fun to be criticized, but when you are new and nervous and unsure of yourself, it's pretty much to be expected that one will do things worthy of criticism. It shouldn't ever degenerate to the level of "antagonism" as the OP describe, and unfortunately, it clearly sometimes does. But as much as more experienced nurses need to realize that they can't expect new nurses to hit the floor 100% prepared, new nurses also need to understand that they have to earn their way into the circle. There is a welcome mat, but it's at the top of the stairs, and it's a long, hard climb.

jjjoy, LPN · Apr 3, 2008

I I found, and still find, that I don't necessarily learn a great deal from being told how well I'm doing. Sometimes the lessons that stick come from being told what a bonehead I've been--usually in a nicer way than that, but the point remains the same. So part of my responsibility is to be able to reflect honestly, well, yes, I was a bonehead.

While I agree that I won't learn if I only hear praise for what I did right, I personally don't learn well from being told "what a bonehead I've been." When I make a mistake or misjudgement or whatever, it's usually not because I've been bonehead, but because I need more information or I need more practice. To me, to be boneheaded means that I did or didn't do something that I *should've* known. So, hanging an IV and forgetting to turn on the pump would be boneheaded. But to be running late myself and bothering someone else's routine because I'm new and want to double check that I'm hanging the right IV drip at the right rate and what potential problems I need to be aware of, that's just being careful. And if my colleagues can't explain their recommendation and I end calling a doctor for something I could've dealt with myself, that's not being boneheaded, it's making a judgement call based upon my limited experience. We're not supposed to blindly just do what others tell us to do, right? So I resent if someone implies that they judge my mistake to be "boneheaded" and due to lack of care or attention or thought on my part as opposed to an "honest mistake" made in spite of the care, attention and thought that I give to my work.