US to Italy

OffTheGrid123 · Apr 28

I'd strongly advice against that unless you have a lot of money saved up or something. I'm from Italy, nurses are severely underpaid here, ratios suck and the cost of life relative to what you earn is pretty high; that's without mentioning the ridiculously high income tax (if you earn anything between 20 and 50k you'll be taxed at 23 to 35%); let's say you'll make 45k before taxes (which is the high end of a nurse's salary here given your 20 years of experience, since neo-graduates barely scrape 20k) taxed at 35%, you're left with 29,250, subtract 12k-15.5k for rent (1-1.3k/month in your average city for a single room apartment), you're left with 17,250-13,750, subtract 3k (conservative estimate) for yearly groceries for one person and you're at 14,250-10,250 euros (all of these expenses account for 1 person).

With what's deemed a "medium high" wage here with two decades of experience you'll be left with about 10 grand at the end of a year (possibly a bit less if you also account for a 2-3 thousands worth of car insurance and gas) of working 40 hours a week in an understaffed hospital, which is about a third of what a new grad nurse would get after taxes and living expenses in your average US state, excluding big hyper-expensive cities like LA, NYC etc. perhaps even less compared to states with no income tax and even lower cost of life. And that's assuming you live austerely when it comes to what you buy other than groceries/whether or not you're gonna go on vacations etc. and also assuming you don't have further expenses like children etc.

This country's far past its prime economically; stay in the US; hell if you don't already go live in a cheap state, you have 20 years of experience, that will at least matter something in the US since it kinda doesn't here; take vacations in Italy if you're simply fascinated by its culture/history/land (you'll actually have money left for vacations working in the US) but moving here especially from one of the countries where nurses have some of the highest income and standard of living just seems silly.

DavidFR, BSN, MSN, RN · May 3

I have zero experience of nursing in Italy, or living there. However I would say in response to the above post that not everybody goes to work in another country for the money.

There are such things as inetellectual curiosity, wanting to experience another culture, wanting to perfect your skills in another language, learn and grow as a person, open your mind etc.

People said I was mad when I came to France from the UK. On paper I was going to a poorer country. But I found a culture and a quality of life that was nothing like I had in the UK. Yes the beginning was tough. We penny pinched living in a tiny studio. Then as time went on we sussed out what the better options were work wise, where to live etc. 24 years on we're still here, property owners and with a comfortable lifestyle (which many people said we'd never have in France). Meanwhile living standards and nursing in general have declined in the UK. Look at what's happening in the US. Is the future there so secure?

The OP may just want an exciting adventure and thus be prepared to rough it for a bit. Living in Italy may not be a lifetime goal as France was for me. At the end of the day, if it really stinks, you can just go home.

OffTheGrid123 · May 3

DavidFR said:

I have zero experience of nursing in Italy, or living there. However I would say in response to the above post that not everybody goes to work in another country for the money.

There are such things as inetellectual curiosity, wanting to experience another culture, wanting to perfect your skills in another language, learn and grow as a person, open your mind etc.

People said I was mad when I came to France from the UK. On paper I was going to a poorer country. But I found a culture and a quality of life that was nothing like I had in the UK. Yes the beginning was tough. We penny pinched living in a tiny studio. Then as time went on we sussed out what the better options were work wise, where to live etc. 24 years on we're still here, property owners and with a comfortable lifestyle (which many people said we'd never have in France). Meanwhile living standards and nursing in general have declined in the UK. Look at what's happening in the US. Is the future there so secure?

The OP may just want an exciting adventure and thus be prepared to rough it for a bit. Living in Italy may not be a lifetime goal as France was for me. At the end of the day, if it really stinks, you can just go home.

That's understandable but I guess it really depends on what your curiosity, as you said, is. If you like art, fine you'll go see art, which is something you can do while on a vacation, which will be far more affordable and enjoyable if you're actually making money (as someone who's lived in the city with arguably most art in the world for 21 years and as someone who loves art, I can tell you the yearly amount of hours I spend satiating such curiosity is about equivalent to that of a two week vacation; 90% of your time is going to consist of working and commuting, not going on sightseeing on your Vespa or whatever sanitized prospect you have, and you'll no longer associate Italy (or your favorite country) = vacation/intellectual curiosity, it'll just become routine).

As for the language, you can learn any language in the country you're already in. I learned English without ever even stepping foot in an English speaking country. Still, if you wanna learn it you'll have something more when you go on a vacation that you'll actually be able to better afford and enjoy due to your economic predicament not being making bare minimum month to month survival money.

Thirdly, if you have specific hobbies like camping/hiking/enjoying nature or anything you'd easily be able to do in most part of the US, forget about that; totally illegal. Someone busts into your house to harm you/your family? Give them all they want and more on a silver platter or you'll go to jail for as much as touching a hair on the head of someone oppressing your bodily/material integrity and freedom. Wanna take a bus somewhere? It's the third strike of the week, guess you'll have to take a cab or your car for which you'll have to do lapses around 10 neighborhoods to find a parking spot and get fined hundreds of euros if you're an inch out of the parking line, all while driving on dilapidated streets that aren't getting fixed even by the exorbitant amount of taxes you pay here.

The list goes on; things aren't good here and they aren't getting any better; the nursing profession is one of the most undervalued, with there being little to no career growth paths like NP or CRNA in the US, and underpaid here, with it being a relatively frequent talking point even in mainstream media, and with Italian nurses fleeing the country en masse to Switzerland, the US, Australia, Norway etc. You can have hobbies and intellectual curiosities, but they don't need to be hampered by your largely decreased quality of life and little to no dignity as a worker, nor ruin or tarnish the image you have of a country or place you like for reasons that go beyond its economy and laws, which is what you're actually going to be dealing with for the absolute vast majority of the time you're gonna be living there.

Just my two cents, anyone can do whatever they wish with their life, just know what you're getting into and be realistic about your expectations.

DavidFR, BSN, MSN, RN · May 4

I take your point and I agree that one shouldn't arrive in a new country with dreamy ideas and expect it to be peaches and cream. It's hard, of course it's hard.

Where I disagree with you is that there is an enormous difference between the intellectual curiosity than one has to actually learn to LIVE another culture and just visiting the odd museum on your days off. When I speak of intellectual curiosity, I don't just mean "hobbies". Some people have that desire to experience the "other" and some people don't. I took the frustrating French bureaucracy, strikes, lower wages and higher taxes as part of the package along with all the good things. Part of the experience.

As for differing levels of opportunities, I've lived it. Having been a masters level clinical nurse specialist in the UK and arriving in France where such things didn't exist, I went back to basic bedside nursing. And I loved it! French nursing was as disadvantaged as you describe Italian nursing when I arrived here in 2001. Things have radically changed now with better salaries, higher education opportunities etc. That didn't fall from the sky. We fought for these things. For my own part I'm an active trade unionist. How politically active are Italian nurses, I wonder?

I wonder if the OP can outline his expectations and goals for us? Would be interesting to hear more Jeff?!!