U of Cinn vs Froniter

[sarahcherie]

Hello All,

For the last 3 years I have been dreaming of apply and attending Froniter for Nurse Midwifery. However, the past year I have been immersed in the world of birthwork as a home birth assistant, doula and post partum hospital RN. I have recently found out that Froniter has changed their clinical policy that says students cannot precept with CNM's that take VBAC clients. I had intended to precept with the midwives that I attend home births with, but they will not be accepting students from Froniter as long as that is the policy ( they don't want to stop taking VBAC's just to have students). This was so disappointing, especially because living near Chicago and UIC makes it nearly impossible to find preceptors that are not already contracted with UIC.

I started looking into other distance programs because frankly UIC is way to expensive, and I love the idea of online classes rather than the time commitment to commute to Chicago for classes. I was referred to University of Cincinnati. Can anyone provide some feedback about this school's program. I know it is not as highly ranked as Frontier, and it is actually more expensive around 42k rather than 30-32k. There is not clinical bound like Frontier has and that makes me nervous about practicing skills prior to clinical.

I am just hoping for some guidance or suggestions. I am beyond disappointed that Frontier seems not to be an option anymore. Is anyone else currently at Froniter with this new policy? How do you feel about not learning how to manage a VBAC patient safely?

Thanks everyone!

[queenanneslace, ADN, MSN, APRN, CNM]

Hi there,

I know of a few - hmmm 2 or 3 - midwives who went through Frontier after working as CPMs and/or homebirth midwives.

They are now CNMs. They had to suspend attending births while they were in the program - and I believe did their clinicals in hospital based practices.

At first I was aghast that *midwives* would not be allowed to attend births OOH. But something must have made it worth it, to them, to attend this program and give up attending homebirth for 2-3 years while they completed the program.

Have you talked to any Frontier grads who had to stop attending home births to complete the program. They may have some perspective for you.

Here's what I like about Frontier:

1) Frontier students have an excellent reputation. Talk to some CNMs who precept students. They say the Frontier students are well-prepared and ready for clinical.

2) Frontier doubles the clinical requirements for nurse-midwifery programs. (ie: if the ACME program requires 20 birth managements, Frontier requires 40)

3) Affordable - as far as CNM programs go. Some of these programs are phenomenally expensive.

Is the issue that your current employer won't contract with Frontier, or that you think you won't find clinical sites in your area?

I'm not quite sure what the limitations are for assisting at births OOH when one is a student with Frontier. It may be possible to continue in your role as birth assistant up until you start your clinical rotations. I think I know a few Frontier students who have done this. But this is not clarified in the student catalog - not that I can see.

I would not recommend PhilaU.

Do you think Cincinnati would not have similar restrictions on preceptors and clinical settings? I think that would be an important question to answer. OOH clinical sites are rather hard to get - for a variety of reasons. Also, most schools require at least some hospital-based sites because you will see a wider variety of patients and there's a higher volume. I don't know how one could complete a CNM program without a hospital-based clinical site.

I am biased - I know many Frontier grads - and they're wonderful, smart midwives - and zero Cincinnati grads. So this is coloring my response a little bit.

[mamagui]

From the way I understand the OP's situation, it is not giving up homebirths, but rather the fact that she cannot be precepted by midwives that allow VBACs. I have been weighing my options for some time now between Frontier, Phila U, and U of C and am still undecided. In my state it is illegal to attend VBACs, so that will never be my dilemma. However, I am saddened that Frontier has taken that stance since one of the cornerstones of midwifery is empowering women to make educated decisions about their reproductive health. I have recently been in touch with several current and former students of Phila U and only one has had a negative opinion of the school. The others have either praised the program or stated that your education is what you make of it (ie you get what you put into it). I agree with you on U of C- the idea of not having hands on experience before being in a clinical setting frightens the S out of me.

Oh, FYI, at Frontier you will have a partner that you will preform a pelvic exam on, and vice versa.

At Phila U, they use models.

[mamagui]

...oh, also, I did find one midwife that graduated from U of C, but she participated in the program on campus (not sure if they even offer that option anymore). Interestingly enough, she now works for Frontier traveling to preceptor sites to check on student progress or something to that effect

[scrubnurse]

I am a Frontier Alumni and I have nothing but positive things to say. Every school has pros and cons, but overall I feel like I had a great education. I love, love, love Frontier's rich history and traditions. It really is a big family and my classmates are not only colleagues but best friends for life. To clarify, the clinical rule is no OOH VBACs. VBACs in hospital during clinicals are acceptable. Frontier does support OOH birth, the preceptor just has to maintain malpractice insurance for obvious legal issues. I would encourage you to call the school if you have any questions or need clarifications. Frontier was my first choice and I have no regrets. (Disclaimer, I know nothing about UofC or other schools). Good luck!!

[edmia, BSN, RN]

Oh, FYI, at Frontier you will have a partner that you will preform a pelvic exam on, and vice versa.

At Phila U, they use models.

FYI- that's no longer true at FNU. There's a new sim lab with models. I'm not sure that's an improvement. Midwives need to be comfortable with the female body in my opinion.

The VBAC issue for OOH births is really sad as few homebirth midwives don't do them. It is also not an evidenced based practice (the exclusion of homebirth VBAC as a safe practice, not VBACs).

From what I hear from my colleagues going to Frontier, the issue of course, is insurance. The school's malpractice insurance will not cover them if students are with OOH preceptors who do VBACs.

I would expect other schools to have similar insurance issues.

[mamagui]

Midwives need to be comfortable with the female body in my opinion

Of course they should! However that does not mean that I want to go investigating my classmates' body, nor do I particularly want them investigating mine. Midwife/ patient relationship is not that same as classmate/classmate.

I am glad to hear that they have models now.

[sarahcherie]

Thanks for all the posts everyone. I check with UC and they do not have restrictions on students attending VBACs OOH which would allow me to precept with the midwives I am familiar with. I would still need to go through the stress of finding a hospital based preceptor, but at least I know I would have one clinical site secured. If I choose Frontier, I would have no opportunity for OOH based precepting, since there are only a limited amount of homebirth practices and I believe all of them do VBACs. So then I am limited to finding hospital preceptors, when really I intend to be a home birth midwife after graduation. And in Illinois its almost impossible to find hospital based preceptors. The whole thing is stressing me out! I already applied to UC and have to wait until I graduate my BSN program in a few months before applying to Frontier. I'd really love to hear from a UC gradute!