CRNA vs. MD

jj224 · Mar 8, 2018

I meant that with the amount of debt that many medical students end up with, a salary of 200k is peanuts.
I don't know what kind of debt the CRNA's have, but I think it is definitely less.

Oh. Well have no fear, anesthesiologists make 350-400k. Thats a lot of peanuts!

Oldmahubbard · Mar 8, 2018

With the loans they have, and the amount of time and effort they spent getting their education, they have to make that much, or it isn't economically feasible.

Not even close.

The doctors I know have a 3000k month student loan payment.

Hence the rise of the APRNs. We can do the same job for less.

No wonder many MDs feel threatened.

I don't have an answer, but the market has gradually been shifting for a long time.

I doubt we will ever get to the point of not needing doctors.

Their education is far superior, but some of it is overkill.

The big advantage they have on NPs is residencies and fellowships.

So totally inexperienced doctors are not unleashed on the public, because they have paid training programs, but totally green NPs are, and it is supposed to be ok.

Bluebolt · Mar 9, 2018

The doctors I know have a 3000k month student loan payment.
Hence the rise of the APRNs. We can do the same job for less.
No wonder many MDs feel threatened.
I don't have an answer, but the market has gradually been shifting for a long time.
I doubt we will ever get to the point of not needing doctors.
Their education is far superior, but some of it is overkill.
The big advantage they have on NPs is residencies and fellowships.

Just wanted to point out a few things because I'm assuming you're coming from the perspective of an NP.

CRNAs are now requiring entry-level practice to be a doctorate. During this time they are increasing the time you're learning and training with medical knowledge and anesthesia concepts. They are also spending more time in didactic and clinical skills like peripheral nerve blocks and various other techniques that in the past were considered MD only. Along with this education comes the constant requirement for research and producing your own research, similar to what is expected of physicians. The AANA has implemented these changes because they are working to bridge the gap as CRNAs take more of a hold on the anesthesia field.

In order for CRNAs to honestly offer the same experience for a less expensive cost, they have to display they are capable of doing everything the competition does safely and effectively. Being a student in one of these programs who trains under MDAs/CRNAs and alongside residents at times I can tell you (my program at least) is doing a great job. My education and training are in parity to theirs and I feel confident that when it's time to step out into the workforce I will be a safe and educated anesthesia provider on par with a new graduate resident. This, of course, doesn't mean I'll be the best at everything right away and need no guidance or mentorship but a physician fresh out of residency won't be either.

There are also a few new fellowship programs opening up for CRNAs so you can continue on and subspecialize if you want.

Most of us going through the BSN-DNP CRNA programs will come out somewhere close to $200,000 in debt. While this new education may bridge the gap in places CRNAs were lacking, it comes at a cost.

You're correct that APRNs who are highly educated and trained will be a large portion of the future healthcare market. Physicians will be used in more hyper-specialized or academic positions. This in-between process where APRNs are not getting as much training or didactic time will need to adjust quickly to meet the needs the market demands.

Oldmahubbard · Mar 9, 2018

I admit I am an PMHNP, so far removed from the realities of anesthesia.

I am glad your education is that good, that rigorous. I know about the DNP requirement, and I am thrilled for you. I am proud that nurses are doing this.

But I wonder, how is it economically and emotionally feasible?

When the loan burden is equal to the typical salary, it is often considered overload at that point.

From what I read, many CRNAs are driven by passion, at least while in school. Money be damned- which is necessary.

I was the same when I did my PMHNP.

It ended up working out for me.

But from my very limited perspective, the competition involved in CRNA programs seems to come at a ridiculously high cost.

Or should I say, more power to those who can rise to the top?

I welcome further comments.

m1lkofamnesia · Mar 9, 2018

But from my very limited perspective, the competition involved in CRNA programs seems to come at a ridiculously high cost.

??? Most people who start anesthesia school finish anesthesia school. It's not a competition? At least not in my program.

Oldmahubbard · Mar 9, 2018

Tough to get into, and a lot of pressure. So I have heard

Bluebolt · Mar 10, 2018

Tough to get into, and a lot of pressure. So I have heard

You are correct on this point.

It is very tough to get into a program and they demand you be ambitous enough to achieve all the benchmarks they set forth to get selected. By doing this they ensure they are selecting applicants who have proven they are willing to do whatever it takes to make it through such rigorous training. The pressure is something I couldn't have imagined before experiencing it. I relate it to an elephant sitting on your chest for 3 years. I handle stress very well but I find myself at times in the program pushed beyond what I thought was my limit. This is endurance training to mold you into an anesthesia professional who can handle anything surgery/anesthesia will throw at you.

The responsibility of knowing you are the airway and hemodynamics expert and if you can't save the patient probably nobody can is stressful.

The school loans are significant. If you consider a new grad can take a position with a base salary of $200,000 right now in a busy practice the loans seem manageable. If you prefer an easy work schedule with lots of vacation and cushy perks you can take a base salary closer to $150,000. Either way, if you live for a couple years like you were still living on your nurses salary you can have it all paid off quick.

Always glad to talk to other APRNs and peek behind the curtain of their careers and share what it's like in mine.