Should second-hand smoke be illegal in a home with children?

starzrn · Mar 14, 2011

Okay so if it were illegal for those with children, whether it were parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, whomever to smoke in a home with a child, then what about those like me who have never smoked in their home?
I come in from outside and trust me my kids are complaining as they cannot stand the smell on my clothes, in my hair, on my skin, etc.
We all know that 2nd hand smoke is harmful and now from what I've been learning in school, others may disagree, that the third hand smoke which I carry back in to the house on my clothing is actually worse than the 2nd hand smoke that those children get from the parents who smoke infront of their child . So if this is actually true, should those like me be fined as well? http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/123/1/e74

You're FUNNY:yeah:

CanuckLPN73 · Mar 14, 2011

You're FUNNY:yeah:

I was being serious.

As I said, if those that smoke in front of their children should be fined than what about us who smoke outside and come back in bringing with us third hand smoke which some believe is just as bad for children.

Should we parents be fined as well? Should smoking as parents be made illegal period because of the hazards regardless of where the parent or (caregiver) smokes because of the risks of both the second and thirdhand smoke?

Im asking a fair question.

allnurses Guide · Mar 14, 2011

There are many possible hazards in a home that pose at least the risk that secondhand smoke does. If we start to make laws outside of existing abuse/endangerment/neglect laws, which will necessitate the creation of a new investigation and enforcement bureaucracy and it's supporting sub-bureaucracies, the expense of adjudicating the cases,and the expenses of prosecuting the parents who are supposedly out of compliance, it will spawn similar laws relating to similar out-of-CPS areas.

When we see something ourselves it takes on much greater relative importance - that's human nature. However, very few parents have a nurse coming into their home. I would guess there are homes with many types of threats to life and limb as serious as secondhand smoke. So if we want to remove children in homes where hazardous chemicals, poor hygiene, bug infestations, unsecured swimming pools, buckets of water in the garage, faulty space heaters, nasty dogs, etc are we willing to accept swat teams from the ATF, warrantless raids and higher taxes to pay for all of that?

What if the parents don't smoke but Grandma does? What if one parent smokes? Should that parent just have to move out? What if they smoke in the garage near a window? Well, technically they are "smokers" just as the people with the cooped up child.

Sorry but if you balance the life-altering trauma of putting the children of smokers in foster-care, it doesn't even come close. Even if you return the child to the home you have ripped up what may have been precarious bonding in the first place. I don't think that will help a child one bit.

If you stop at a fine, you might as well not do anything. If the parent doesn't pay the fine, more fees will be piled on, it will be referred to a collection agency and etc etc etc while the child is still there exposed to the smoke. You've stripped that family of resources, though. So now you have a child in a home with secondhand smoke and no money.

If all we had to do was make objectionable behavior by parents illegal, it would have been done long ago. We might have Babyproofing Compliance Officers. That kind of intrusion changes the psychology of the citizenry - and when you ask fellow citizens to report their neighbors for what they do in their own homes, it's a very dangerous path to go down.

I don't understand why if a child is in a home and gasping for air why wouldn't someone refer it for evaluation by the only way we have now in place? (CPS) If you saw a meth lab in the back yard you would, and not so much for the drug dealing as the health and safety of the child should the thing explode or catch fire, or the air is contaminated.

starzrn · Mar 15, 2011

I was being serious.
As I said, if those that smoke in front of their children should be fined than what about us who smoke outside and come back in bringing with us third hand smoke which some believe is just as bad for children.
Should we parents be fined as well? Should smoking as parents be made illegal period because of the hazards regardless of where the parent or (caregiver) smokes because of the risks of both the second and thirdhand smoke?
Im asking a fair question.

I can't believe you are serious, but okay, I am happy to consider an honest answer if you help clarify a couple of questions for me.

First of all, let me ask this:

Do you think second hand smoke or third hand smoke is so serious that you believe you could cause fatal harm to a child?

Second question for you is, what would you consider harm to a child, if any, that you would want the government/authorities to get involved in... should education not be effective?

backatit2 · Mar 15, 2011

i don't think it should be illegal - it would also be impossible to police.

my grandparents smoked like freight trains in their closed up trailer and i remember it would burn my eyes and i'd open them with my fingers and put them in front of the air conditioner that was in the window.

my dad smoked in his apartment that was larger and had doors opened often and it never bothered me unless i got right up next to him with a cigarette.

i think it's bad to smoke in the same room or in the car with a child and ESPECIALLY a baby, but to say no smoking in the home at all?

when my son was an infant a girl i worked with came over to help with a spanish class i was taking. i didn't smoke a lot but i would have a cigarette and a beer now and then in the evening so when we were finished i offered her a beer which she accepted and after i put my son in the bed with the door closed i smoked a cigarette while we sat there drinking our beer. she went back to work and told someone how horrible it was that i was smoking "around" my baby! she got a mouthful - especially since she had told everyone about her boyfriend that left her toddler son at home alone in his crib at night when he picked her up from work.

if the worst thing i ever do as a parent is smoke in the same building as my children then i'll be happy.

starzrn · Mar 15, 2011

There are many possible hazards in a home that pose at least the risk that secondhand smoke does. If we start to make laws outside of existing abuse/endangerment/neglect laws, which will necessitate the creation of a new investigation and enforcement bureaucracy and it's supporting sub-bureaucracies, the expense of adjudicating the cases,and the expenses of prosecuting the parents who are supposedly out of compliance, it will spawn similar laws relating to similar out-of-CPS areas.
When we see something ourselves it takes on much greater relative importance - that's human nature. However, very few parents have a nurse coming into their home. I would guess there are homes with many types of threats to life and limb as serious as secondhand smoke. So if we want to remove children in homes where hazardous chemicals, poor hygiene, bug infestations, unsecured swimming pools, buckets of water in the garage, faulty space heaters, nasty dogs, etc are we willing to accept swat teams from the ATF, warrantless raids and higher taxes to pay for all of that?
What if the parents don't smoke but Grandma does? What if one parent smokes? Should that parent just have to move out? What if they smoke in the garage near a window? Well, technically they are "smokers" just as the people with the cooped up child.
Sorry but if you balance the life-altering trauma of putting the children of smokers in foster-care, it doesn't even come close. Even if you return the child to the home you have ripped up what may have been precarious bonding in the first place. I don't think that will help a child one bit.
If you stop at a fine, you might as well not do anything. If the parent doesn't pay the fine, more fees will be piled on, it will be referred to a collection agency and etc etc etc while the child is still there exposed to the smoke. You've stripped that family of resources, though. So now you have a child in a home with secondhand smoke and no money.
If all we had to do was make objectionable behavior by parents illegal, it would have been done long ago. We might have Babyproofing Compliance Officers. That kind of intrusion changes the psychology of the citizenry - and when you ask fellow citizens to report their neighbors for what they do in their own homes, it's a very dangerous path to go down.
I don't understand why if a child is in a home and gasping for air why wouldn't someone refer it for evaluation by the only way we have now in place? (CPS) If you saw a meth lab in the back yard you would, and not so much for the drug dealing as the health and safety of the child should the thing explode or catch fire, or the air is contaminated.

So, we would only report it if they are gasping for air?

When I go into a home where they are smoking, I don't begin gasping for air, but I feel like part of my airway is cut off, and many of my non smoking friends agree...not all...but many.

Let's say we look into someones window (as a fellow citizen) and see a parent whipping a child...enough to cause bleeding welts and possible permanent harm.

Now, the child may not be screaming for help, but we know it may be causing possible harm...do we just walk away because we don't want to offend our neighbors...after all...they are beating their kid in their own home and we don't want to make a "very dangerous path to go down".

AGAIN...I would not want the child to be removed from the home as in permanent. I would want the parent to put out the cigarette or I would want to get the child away from the smoke...do you get it?

Your example of chemical hazards, and removing children, I am happy to answer. If I knew anyone in the home were exposed to harmful chemicals...I would call a poison center and seek advice...and if a parent did it on purpose, I would ask the doc for a psych consult:nurse:

backatit2 · Mar 15, 2011

So, we would only report it if they are gasping for air?
When I go into a home where they are smoking, I don't begin gasping for air, but I feel like part of my airway is cut off, and many of my non smoking friends agree...not all...but many.
Let's say we look into someones window (as a fellow citizen) and see a parent whipping a child...enough to cause bleeding welts and possible permanent harm.
Now, the child may not be screaming for help, but we know it may be causing possible harm...do we just walk away because we don't want to offend our neighbors...after all...they are beating their kid in their own home and we don't want to make a "very dangerous path to go down".
AGAIN...I would not want the child to be removed from the home as in permanent. I would want the parent to put out the cigarette or I would want to get the child away from the smoke...do you get it?
Your example of chemical hazards, and removing children, I am happy to answer. If I knew anyone in the home were exposed to harmful chemicals...I would call a poison center and seek advice...and if a parent did it on purpose, I would ask the doc for a psych consult:nurse:

so do you think fat kids should be removed from their home, or temporarily taken away until the cheeseburgers stop being made? should they get psych evals?

everything can't be policed - and thank god for that.

starzrn · Mar 15, 2011

I have a scenario for you nursel56 .

You are in a patients home (as a private duty nurse) and your elderly COPD patient does not smoke, but her daughter, son in law, and grandson smoke whom she is living with. There are two small toddlers sitting on the couch. The smoke is so thick it's hard to breathe.

You educate the patient on second hand smoke and the harm it can cause to the patient and all of those in the home. The patient says " I don't want to speak up because it is their home".

You ask if they've discussed smoking cessation with the doctor and she says "oh yes, the doctor is aware that the whole family smokes and is trying to get them to quit".

What do you do?

starzrn · Mar 15, 2011

so do you think fat kids should be removed from their home, or temporarily taken away until the cheeseburgers stop being made? should they get psych evals?
everything can't be policed - and thank god for that.

If that cheeseburger cut off an airway, I would hope someone would do something!

allnurses Guide · Mar 15, 2011

So, we would only report it if they are gasping for air?
When I go into a home where they are smoking, I don't begin gasping for air, but I feel like part of my airway is cut off, and many of my non smoking friends agree...not all...but many.
Let's say we look into someones window (as a fellow citizen) and see a parent whipping a child...enough to cause bleeding welts and possible permanent harm.
Now, the child may not be screaming for help, but we know it may be causing possible harm...do we just walk away because we don't want to offend our neighbors...after all...they are beating their kid in their own home and we don't want to make a "very dangerous path to go down".
AGAIN...I would not want the child to be removed from the home as in permanent. I would want the parent to put out the cigarette or I would want to get the child away from the smoke...do you get it?

I'll not respond to the "do you get it?" directly, but I was respectful in my language to you, even though I'm sure I could think of many things in your posts to take a dig at.

The phrase "gasping for air" was simply verbal shorthand. I wrote about my own asthma etc in an earlier post here. Since I've been hospitalized three times with status asthmaticus I don't need anybody to tell me what it feels like not to be able to get enough air. If I saw a child being beaten in their home I wouldn't go on a message board and ask people what laws they think would be appropriate in that situation. I would call the police.

Laws deal in specifics. You offer vague remedies about fines and "just temporary" permanent damage to the emotional health of a child. If I see someone beating their child in the home I call the police. If you are that worried about the child that's what you should do, too. You've yet to answer why you don't do that, and this is the third time I've brought it up. But I guess if your action after knowing a parent poisoned their child would be to ask for a psych consult I shouldn't be surprised.

backatit2 · Mar 15, 2011

If that cheeseburger cut off an airway, I would hope someone would do something!

second hand smoke rarely cuts off a child's airway - it's the long term exposure and harm that arises later on that's the problem - just like the scenario with obese kids whose parents create and feed the problem.

starzrn · Mar 15, 2011

i'll not respond to the "do you get it?" directly, but i was respectful in my language to you, even though i'm sure i could think of many things in your posts to take a dig at.
the phrase "gasping for air" was simply verbal shorthand. i wrote about my own asthma etc in an earlier post here. since i've been hospitalized three times with status asthmaticus i don't need anybody to tell me what it feels like not to be able to get enough air. if i saw a child being beaten in their home i wouldn't go on a message board and ask people what laws they think would be appropriate in that situation. i would call the police.
laws deal in specifics. you offer vague remedies about fines and "just temporary" permanent damage to the emotional health of a child. if i see someone beating their child in the home i call the police. if you are that worried about the child that's what you should do, too. you've yet to answer why you don't do that, and this is the third time i've brought it up. but i guess if your action after knowing a parent poisoned their child would be to ask for a psych consult i shouldn't be surprised.

so you would call the police on a beating but not if you saw a smoking parent smoke around a baby? this is why i bring this up. we all know to call the police for a beating, and i would too, but why in only some states is it illegal for foster parents to smoke in a home. should it not be illegal in all states? after all, a beating may or may not cause death just as second hand smoke may or may not cause death.

"surgeon general warning: secondhand smoke puts children at risk

on june 27th, 2006, the surgeon general released a major new report on involuntary exposure to secondhand smoke, concluding that secondhand smoke causes disease and death in children and nonsmoking adults. the report finds a causal relationship between secondhand smoke exposure and sudden infant death syndrome (sids), and declares that the home is becoming the predominant location for exposure of children and adults to secondhand smoke.