I posted this elsewhere, but it may be more easily found if I post it as a separate thread...so here goes!
I am reaching out to those nurses in the Recovery & Monitoring Program of NJ (and to those faced with similar circumstances). I have been in enrolled for about 6 months, and I have never been more appalled by the corruption that is this "recovery" program. I am looking to write to various influential state representatives in hope of receiving a response. I know this may not create change, but perhaps, it will create awareness. I'd love to hear any input (pros/cons).
I used to think their intention was to help turn my life around for the better, but after jumping through flaming hoop after flaming hoop--I have come to realize that it's almost strictly a money sink that operates behind the facade of ~helping nurses~. On an up-note my recreational drug use has ceased, but my depression/anxiety has become severe, and I have constant nightmares and panic attacks. I am hesitant to inform them of the issues at hand, in fear of having them inactivate my recently activated license. I am in fear of saying anything that could potentially worsen my situation, as I have seen them bear down on so many nurses who dare to question their ways. What aggravates me more--is that they abuse the 'voluntary' aspect of this program as a loophole to eradicate our individual rights.
...this question often comes to mind-- if addiction is viewed as a physical defect in the hedonic system of the brain (i.e. a disease), then why are we being punished for our disease? It seems like, as a society, we are still operating archaically in regards to a mental disorder such as this.
There are a few great articles (listed below) that refer to addiction, and how we are going about 'treating' it, in a manner which often proves to be ineffective. Dear RAMP, if you truly want to help us, there is no need to break us, for we are already full of shame and guilt. Perhaps, what we need is support and individually-based treatment. Stripping me of structure, a job, financial security and forcing me to forego my admission into school to acquire my DNP...none of it has helped me. Only fear is keeping me sober. I have never been more miserable and broken in my entire life.
Assuming I graduate from RAMP in 2020, I will have handed over a minimum of $17,000. I would have been graduating from my DNP program that year. Hopefully, by then I will have found a job...although, after many emotionally draining job rejections, I am afraid that may take more time than expected. ....I will keep fighting, because this is my life and I've only got one. You may be able to break me, but you will never destroy my character and determination.
What a lovely way of thanking the people that truly care, those with endless empathy that will literally break their back to help another.
Dear RAMP, perhaps, you need to take a closer look...and try a bit harder to find where the root of the problem lies....
All these years later, can I ask if you are done with HAVEN and how it went?
I'm seriously considering taking a gamble with a hearing in front of the BON because what HAVEN is trying to paint as the truth just isn't so and at least at a hearing my attorney and I could present evidence showing this.
You definitely need to do that!. If you have already got an attorney, then a hearing with the attorney can absolutely do you zero harm. If it don't work out in your favor, rhe BON just puts you in monitoring anyway. If you do NOT go to the hearing, then monitoring is likely automatic, so you have the same result anyway, BUT if you go to the hearing with an attorney present, you at least have a chance. That chance isn't all or none either. It could be no monitoring at all, but let's say the attorney can't get the BON to drop monitoring completely, they can still give you a possible partial win. An attorney can often get the "sentence reduced." For example, 3 years or 4 years instead of 5 with the ability to petition to be dismissed/graduate early at the 2 year timeframe if you have a flawless 2 years, or something resembling the above example. The numbers above vary, but you get my point. Without an attorney? Zero chance of a couple of those wins happening......or dang near zero. Nothing is zero, but it's approaching it. And without an attorney, most nurses Do Not get a clause placed in their BON consent order where they can petition a year early, sometimes 18 months early, to graduate from monitoring. I would 100 percent for sure do a hearing and take the attorney with you. Just my opinion though.
You definitely need to do that!. If you have already got an attorney, then a hearing with the attorney can absolutely do you zero harm. If it don't work out in your favor, rhe BON just puts you in monitoring anyway. If you do NOT go to the hearing, then monitoring is likely automatic, so you have the same result anyway, BUT if you go to the hearing with an attorney present, you at least have a chance. That chance isn't all or none either. It could be no monitoring at all, but let's say the attorney can't get the BON to drop monitoring completely, they can still give you a possible partial win. An attorney can often get the "sentence reduced." For example, 3 years or 4 years instead of 5 with the ability to petition to be dismissed/graduate early at the 2 year timeframe if you have a flawless 2 years, or something resembling the above example. The numbers above vary, but you get my point. Without an attorney? Zero chance of a couple of those wins happening......or dang near zero. Nothing is zero, but it's approaching it. And without an attorney, most nurses Do Not get a clause placed in their BON consent order where they can petition a year early, sometimes 18 months early, to graduate from monitoring. I would 100 percent for sure do a hearing and take the attorney with you. Just my opinion though.
The only reason I'm hesitant is because then it's not private like through the alternative to discipline. I really don't relish the thought of being called and addict and also having my complex, private medical information broadcast online for anyone and everyone to hear.
Side note - I would have never become a nurse if I knew it meant giving up my right to privacy and decency. If any other patient was treated this way, others would be appalled.
Side note - I would have never become a nurse if I knew it meant giving up my right to privacy and decency. If any other patient was treated this way, others would be appalled
Exactly. We gave our hearts and souls to help people and this is what we get in return. I mean we can still commit a crime and become president of United States. Seems fair..
Side note - I would have never become a nurse if I knew it meant giving up my right to privacy and decency. If any other patient was treated this way, others would be appalled
Exactly. We gave our hearts and souls to help people and this is what we get in return. I mean we can still commit a crime and become president of United States. Seems fair..
Oof that one hit hard! Wild we are held to higher standards than the person running the country. And for not even a fraction of the pay!
I mean, obviously patients deserve competent nurses who aren't impaired, but the way these people are twisting my medical history to deem me incompetent makes my blood boil.
I just keep reminding myself, nursing is not my identity. If I need to rebuild I will, and likely be happier. One step at a time.
Oof that one hit hard! Wild we are held to higher standards than the person running the country. And for not even a fraction of the pay!
I mean, obviously patients deserve competent nurses who aren't impaired, but the way these people are twisting my medical history to deem me incompetent makes my blood boil.
I just keep reminding myself, nursing is not my identity. If I need to rebuild I will, and likely be happier. One step at a time.
Most of us were never impaired. I had a dwi on my day off, I know someone who didn't do there CUs on time, others who checked themselves into rehab mental facilities. We all get punished. It's pure corruption. Bc I couldn't do ramp njbon didn't stop at suspending my license. They messed with my whole life. It's a nightmare. I loved nursing.. It was my calling and my identity. I was the first in my class in nursing school and harassed doctors and specialists at work to teach me everything. I held people's hands who were dying after clocking out. I know I made a difference! It is so painful and still hard to even comprehend. I was lucky that I had family to help with bills. I have a special needs child and we almost ended up on the street. What happened to others who aren't so lucky? I went back to school and I'm getting another degree. I'm moving on and hoping that one day we all get vindicated and these people go to jail for corruption and abuse. I know of a few cases where nurses took their lives. No surprise, we can relate to the pain. So njbon and ramp are literally committing manslaughter. It's beyond me that they are above the law. I tried writing to tv stations and politicians. No one cares.. Maybe one day..
Oof that one hit hard! Wild we are held to higher standards than the person running the country. And for not even a fraction of the pay!
I mean, obviously patients deserve competent nurses who aren't impaired, but the way these people are twisting my medical history to deem me incompetent makes my blood boil.
I just keep reminding myself, nursing is not my identity. If I need to rebuild I will, and likely be happier. One step at a time.
I have no doubt that you are a smart amazing nurse. It's a job that gives people ptsd and we are punished for being in pain. My parents brought me here from a communist country and it's not so different here.
If you don't have a lawyer at the meeting, the odds are overwhelming that you get 5 years. Additionally, the Nurse Board has additional tricks up its sleeve. They can easily turn your Non Public discipline to Public if you make one slip in the monitoring program. For example, a missed check in or a late report. I'm not talking about a failed drug test, but simply a couple of missed check ins, or a report turned in 1 day late. Just from someone who has been in monitoring that did 5 years, I would take 3 years and have it broadcast to America compared to 5 years and being private. Just my opinion though.
Remember this. If you end up doing private, where the BON doesn't release your your discipline as Public, you still have those golden questions to future employers where it asks, "have you ever had a substance abuse problem where you participated in a program for substsnce abuse?" Sure, you can answer no, but let's say you have a ****** former spouse or boyfriend or coworker or relative that gets mad at you and notifies your future employer. That's all it takes and then the employer reports to the BON and you get the hammer dropped on you. That scenario I just gave happens regularly. Additionally, if you go on for more schooling like NP, that university, the NP license application, your national certifying body WILL ask. Again, you can answer no, but boy are you taking a chance by doing so and there's a constant state of anxiety that sooner or later, they find out. I couldn't live like that.
My point is this......as it pertains to jobs, future jobs, future licenses, future possible Advanced Practice Licenses, future Colleges and Universities, there's not a huge difference in public versus private discipline. Is there some difference? Of course there is, but it's not at the level many perceive it to be on this board.
The above is why I would play the odds and take the lawyer to the meeting and try to get less monitoring time. The downside of having your discipline made public is NOT as bad or damaging as you may think COMPARED to private discipline in which you will STILL have to answer those famous questions for the rest of your career.
If you don't have a lawyer at the meeting, the odds are overwhelming that you get 5 years. Additionally, the Nurse Board has additional tricks up its sleeve. They can easily turn your Non Public discipline to Public if you make one slip in the monitoring program. For example, a missed check in or a late report. I'm not talking about a failed drug test, but simply a couple of missed check ins, or a report turned in 1 day late. Just from someone who has been in monitoring that did 5 years, I would take 3 years and have it broadcast to America compared to 5 years and being private. Just my opinion though.
Remember this. If you end up doing private, where the BON doesn't release your your discipline as Public, you still have those golden questions to future employers where it asks, "have you ever had a substance abuse problem where you participated in a program for substsnce abuse?" Sure, you can answer no, but let's say you have a pissed off former spouse or boyfriend or coworker or relative that gets mad at you and notifies your future employer. That's all it takes and then the employer reports to the BON and you get the hammer dropped on you. That scenario I just gave happens regularly. Additionally, if you go on for more schooling like NP, that university, the NP license application, your national certifying body WILL ask. Again, you can answer no, but boy are you taking a chance by doing so and there's a constant state of anxiety that sooner or later, they find out. I couldn't live like that.
My point is this......as it pertains to jobs, future jobs, future licenses, future possible Advanced Practice Licenses, future Colleges and Universities, there's not a huge difference in public versus private discipline. Is there some difference? Of course there is, but it's not at the level many perceive it to be on this board.
The above is why I would play the odds and take the lawyer to the meeting and try to get less monitoring time. The downside of having your discipline made public is NOT as bad or damaging as you may think COMPARED to private discipline in which you will STILL have to answer those famous questions for the rest of your career.
Yeah, I have a lot to think about. I will say that my lawyer kind of went from "I' not really sure there's much we can do, but I'll guide you" to "I think they're cocky and overpaying their hand, I think you should fight". I guess my immediate next steps are to do the comprehensive evaluation they want, but also get one of my own and see what that says, and then go from there.
Yeah, I have a lot to think about. I will say that my lawyer kind of went from "I' not really sure there's much we can do, but I'll guide you" to "I think they're cocky and overpaying their hand, I think you should fight". I guess my immediate next steps are to do the comprehensive evaluation they want, but also get one of my own and see what that says, and then go from there.
You dang for sure need to get one of your own!. Want to be smart and increase your odds? Get your own eval FIRST if at all possible. Why? When you walk into the "Board Approved," or "Corrupted adjoined at the hip BON eval place," what are they going to think if the first minute you walk into the door, you drop a packet on their desk and specifically say, "This is past pertinent medical history related to why I am here and it includes a recent eval." Now, could they still cheat? Yes. But are they going to be more cautious or hesitant? You better believe they are. If you have a recent eval that says no issues, that provider at the BON approved facility has to be 100 percent sure you have an SUD in order to diagnose you if you recently had another provider saying that you do NOT.
Additionally, don't fall for the ole "We use our own evals and don't go by other evals" trick and do not let them refuse to take your eval. You need to specifically say, "This is Past Medical History Related To Why I am Here" and literally drop the eval results out of your hand and onto their desk. Do not offer! Do it. Literally put it on their desk. Why? Past medical history that is pertinent can NOT be refused by a new provider. To do so is negligence and that eval place can get into big trouble, BIG trouble if they don't review it. Sure, they can go by their own results, but having another provider that just evaluated you that says you have no issues puts great pressure on them.
The tricks the eval places use are...."We never received it or she never gave it to us or she didn't tell us it was past medical history." This is why you use the words Past Medical History and drop that packet out of your hands and onto their desk because you have just relinquished it from your physical possession. If they fail to acknowledge, your lawyer can have a field day and get the whole eval they do thrown out. Yes, I have seen this several times over the years.
Big mistake many nurses make? They don't get their own eval (a second eval) and if they do, they wait and do it After the BON approved eval. Try to get yours done First. It has incrediible weight and power when you do....assuming the results are negative for SUD disorder.
Getting a second eval is how so many nurses end up winning. The BON convinces nurses that a second eval isn't "approved" by them, LOL. And the nurses believe it! LOL. They way nurses who do win is by having a lawyer, getting the case into the hands of an administrative law judge and I've witnessed this over 10 times when I was a legal nurse consultant/paralegal years ago. And that is......the BON lawyer tells the judge that the "BONs policy is not to accept outside evals, but only BON approved eval centers." The judge laughs and says, "that's great, but we aren't at the BON anymore, we are in a court of law, My Court, and I decide what evidence is approved." 90 plus percent of the time, the judge allows both evals, and the nurse gets off.
The BON has all the power in the world......Within the confinements of the BON. When the BON gets dragged into a court of law and outside the friendly space of the BON in front of an actual Administrative Law Judge, Everything Changes. The BON gets nervous. They get worried. The KNOW their power is taken away and that the outcome now simply comes down to evidence. That's how nurses win.
You dang for sure need to get one of your own!. Want to be smart and increase your odds? Get your own eval FIRST if at all possible. Why? When you walk into the "Board Approved," or "Corrupted adjoined at the hip BON eval place," what are they going to think if the first minute you walk into the door, you drop a packet on their desk and specifically say, "This is past pertinent medical history related to why I am here and it includes a recent eval." Now, could they still cheat? Yes. But are they going to be more cautious or hesitant? You better believe they are. If you have a recent eval that says no issues, that provider at the BON approved facility has to be 100 percent sure you have an SUD in order to diagnose you if you recently had another provider saying that you do NOT.
Additionally, don't fall for the ole "We use our own evals and don't go by other evals" trick and do not let them refuse to take your eval. You need to specifically say, "This is Past Medical History Related To Why I am Here" and literally drop the eval results out of your hand and onto their desk. Do not offer! Do it. Literally put it on their desk. Why? Past medical history that is pertinent can NOT be refused by a new provider. To do so is negligence and that eval place can get into big trouble, BIG trouble if they don't review it. Sure, they can go by their own results, but having another provider that just evaluated you that says you have no issues puts great pressure on them.
The tricks the eval places use are...."We never received it or she never gave it to us or she didn't tell us it was past medical history." This is why you use the words Past Medical History and drop that packet out of your hands and onto their desk because you have just relinquished it from your physical possession. If they fail to acknowledge, your lawyer can have a field day and get the whole eval they do thrown out. Yes, I have seen this several times over the years.
Big mistake many nurses make? They don't get their own eval (a second eval) and if they do, they wait and do it After the BON approved eval. Try to get yours done First. It has incrediible weight and power when you do....assuming the results are negative for SUD disorder.
Getting a second eval is how so many nurses end up winning. The BON convinces nurses that a second eval isn't "approved" by them, LOL. And the nurses believe it! LOL. They way nurses who do win is by having a lawyer, getting the case into the hands of an administrative law judge and I've witnessed this over 10 times when I was a legal nurse consultant/paralegal years ago. And that is......the BON lawyer tells the judge that the "BONs policy is not to accept outside evals, but only BON approved eval centers." The judge laughs and says, "that's great, but we aren't at the BON anymore, we are in a court of law, My Court, and I decide what evidence is approved." 90 plus percent of the time, the judge allows both evals, and the nurse gets off.
The BON has all the power in the world......Within the confinements of the BON. When the BON gets dragged into a court of law and outside the friendly space of the BON in front of an actual Administrative Law Judge, Everything Changes. The BON gets nervous. They get worried. The KNOW their power is taken away and that the outcome now simply comes down to evidence. That's how nurses win.
The Nurse monitoring representative for HAVEN (she is a JD) did tell me I could find my own provider to do the comprehensive evaluation and they could vet them and see if they approve. I think this is because I already sent a complaint to DPH about my concerns with financial kickbacks and ethical issues of only requiring to chose from their 2 providers deemed appropriate. Anyways, what do I even Google to find one? It's a comprehensive eval of mental, physical, substance it sounds like. Who does that and how do you find one. And is there anyway to get it covered by insurance? I'm lost and I feel like they are counting on people being overwhelmed and just giving up. On a positive note, I have been doing an IOP level program for almost 4 months now through DCF and those 3 wonderful therapists who come to my house for an hour 3 times a week have stated there is definitely not an SUD present. So I am definitely obtaining those records as well.
Google Recovery Centers in your state. The overwhelming majority of recovery Centers are the ones that do them. Any place that has inpatient med detox or IOP programs do them. There are MANY. As for the BON approved eval, you obviously have to do one at a site they have approved.
Now as for the other eval, your own eval, I am NOT an attorney, but I kind of disagree with the approach of having your own eval "vetted first by the BON." The entire purpose is to have one that is NOT tied to the BON and if your attorney submits one that isn't tied to the BON (a legitimate one) for approved, then the BON will say...."no thanks. It must be one of ours." A comprehensive eval is more complete and you tell the recovery center exactly what you need. There are tons of them in NJ. Obviously, go by what your attorney says, but if I am in your shoes, as it relates to my own eval, not the BON approved one, bit my own eval, I PURPOSELY get the eval at a place that is NOT approved by the BON and I do NOT get permission to do it or to "get it approved" by the BON.
Be sure to tell your attorney that if this doesn't work out, you are prepared to try and get this in the hands of an administrative law judge. If...IF....that this is the way you feel. I say that because attorneys are like Doctors. Some are great, some are lazy and not so great. You don't want your attorney thinking that he or she just needs to "get you past this initial hump and into monitoring you go," and the attorney makes There money and never sees you again. Be sure to let your attorney know an admin law judge and court is on the table.
ONE MAJOR CAVEAT that makes none of the above Matter.......if you have an SUD and the evidence against you is or was slam dunk such as diversion at work, you are NOT going to win. There is no getting out of it. The SUD eval center will find it as they do advanced testing in comprehensive evals with questionnaires that you can't fake because they have built in detectors that detect if you are presenting yourself in an overly positive light. If it's a DUI, an attorney is valuable because they can fight to get your sentence reduced, but if it's diversion at work with proof such as the pixis pulls or one person saying you looked high l, etc....no attorney will get you out of that, so a second eval is useless. They could STILL get a clause placed where you could petition for early graduation from monitoring.
Google Recovery Centers in your state. The overwhelming majority of recovery Centers are the ones that do them. Any place that has inpatient med detox or IOP programs do them. There are MANY. As for the BON approved eval, you obviously have to do one at a site they have approved.
Now as for the other eval, your own eval, I am NOT an attorney, but I kind of disagree with the approach of having your own eval "vetted first by the BON." The entire purpose is to have one that is NOT tied to the BON and if your attorney submits one that isn't tied to the BON (a legitimate one) for approved, then the BON will say...."no thanks. It must be one of ours." A comprehensive eval is more complete and you tell the recovery center exactly what you need. There are tons of them in NJ. Obviously, go by what your attorney says, but if I am in your shoes, as it relates to my own eval, not the BON approved one, bit my own eval, I PURPOSELY get the eval at a place that is NOT approved by the BON and I do NOT get permission to do it or to "get it approved" by the BON.
Be sure to tell your attorney that if this doesn't work out, you are prepared to try and get this in the hands of an administrative law judge. If...IF....that this is the way you feel. I say that because attorneys are like Doctors. Some are great, some are lazy and not so great. You don't want your attorney thinking that he or she just needs to "get you past this initial hump and into monitoring you go," and the attorney makes There money and never sees you again. Be sure to let your attorney know an admin law judge and court is on the table.
ONE MAJOR CAVEAT that makes none of the above Matter.......if you have an SUD and the evidence against you is or was slam dunk such as diversion at work, you are NOT going to win. There is no getting out of it. The SUD eval center will find it as they do advanced testing in comprehensive evals with questionnaires that you can't fake because they have built in detectors that detect if you are presenting yourself in an overly positive light. If it's a DUI, an attorney is valuable because they can fight to get your sentence reduced, but if it's diversion at work with proof such as the pixis pulls or one person saying you looked high l, etc....no attorney will get you out of that, so a second eval is useless. They could STILL get a clause placed where you could petition for early graduation from monitoring.
Is there anyway I could send you a direct message? You seem very knowledgeable, I just don't want to blast all the details of my story on here
SheelaDavis
123 Posts
You definitely need to do that!. If you have already got an attorney, then a hearing with the attorney can absolutely do you zero harm. If it don't work out in your favor, rhe BON just puts you in monitoring anyway. If you do NOT go to the hearing, then monitoring is likely automatic, so you have the same result anyway, BUT if you go to the hearing with an attorney present, you at least have a chance. That chance isn't all or none either. It could be no monitoring at all, but let's say the attorney can't get the BON to drop monitoring completely, they can still give you a possible partial win. An attorney can often get the "sentence reduced." For example, 3 years or 4 years instead of 5 with the ability to petition to be dismissed/graduate early at the 2 year timeframe if you have a flawless 2 years, or something resembling the above example. The numbers above vary, but you get my point. Without an attorney? Zero chance of a couple of those wins happening......or dang near zero. Nothing is zero, but it's approaching it. And without an attorney, most nurses Do Not get a clause placed in their BON consent order where they can petition a year early, sometimes 18 months early, to graduate from monitoring. I would 100 percent for sure do a hearing and take the attorney with you. Just my opinion though.