I checked in on the edmonton sun webpage today to see if there have been any replies to T.A Ball's statements about nurses and this is what I found:
RE: OCT. 29 letter. I oppose Carol Carbol's labelling of nurses as professionals. Nursing should not be awarded the same status as a true profession such as law, accounting, medicine or dentistry. A true professional performs highly complex tasks and demonstrates a high level of judgment. Nurses must follow policy and procedure and make low-level operational decisions. As an accountant, I am insulted that a nurse would believe they are my equal.
Ivan Miller (Don't get sick.)
Isn't that ridiculous? People just don't seem to understand what nurses really do, and the level of knowledge you need to become a nurse. Since I was a young girl I have always admired nurses and thought they were incredibly smart. Being a student nurse, I realize how much I need to understand before I graduate and looking at all you nurses on this forum, I think you are some of the most amazing people in the world with so much to offer and we ARE professionals. If we weren't I wouldnt have received a "credit line for professional students" to get through school. Anyway, just wondering what u guys thought about this. I didn't realize people could be so ignorant.
Specializes in burn, geriatric, rehab, wound care, ER.
I do not think nurses are professionals either......
I think better suited terminology would be highly skilled slave labor work force.
Rick - what you think is irrelevant (no offense intended) -nursing fits the formal definition of a professional as I mentioned earlier. However the public might see us as more of a profession if we were able to charge for our services, not just included in the room rate. One day, when I rule the world, I will make sure this happens - until then it is up to us to advocate for ourselves.
In regard to the editorial, the writer clearly has a very limited view of what nurses do and needs to learn more about what he's writing.
In regard to whether nurses are professionals or not, I tend to think it's a pointless argument. However, I enjoy a good debate, so here goes.
I could argue that most professionals, traditionally, have their own practice. From electricians to physicians, they'd have to network and build their client base. They'd advertise and invest in the tools of their trade, with the hope that it would pay off in the long run. They'd make all the final decisions about their business and their practice. Nurses, on the other hand, usually worked for others, be they doctors or hospitals. Their boss dictated their workflow and responsibilities, though they had to use their own judgement day to day in each new situation.
Many nurses love the flexibility of nursing, where they can practice in so many different areas without having to go back to school for several years. They like being able to leave their job at work at the end of their shift, with someone else taking off where they left off. These job characteristics are quite un-professional in the definition of professional I'm using. A doctor who has specialized in pediatrics can't just decide one day to switch to geriatrics because he/she wants to try something different. A surgeon follows his patient from initial consultation to follow up (ideally, traditionally, anyway).
However, professions/jobs are changing all the time. Many doctors are employees now, working for HMOs, for example. Some might consider this less professional. The many lawyers who are employed by big law firms might be considered less professional than the firm partners or lawyers with their own private practice.
You want to get the skinny out about nurses...sadly it may take a TV show strictly about the RN view
I have been thinking the same thing. And have you also noticed that when someone's life gets saved on other random shows, it's always a Dr. doing the saving. Never a nurse or EMT. I say we need to come up with a good primetime quality TV show idea to sell.
My sociology book (Sociology in a Changing World 7th ed. by William Kornblum) defines a profession as....."an occupation with a body or recognized knowledge and a developed intellectual techniques. Its knowledge is transmitted by a formal educational process, and entry into the profession is regulated by testing procedures. Most professions are licensed by the state. This definition can be applied to.....doctors, attorneys...nurses."
If that doesn't defined licensed nursing, I don't know what does. I refuse to get into a battle of the wits with this person, because he is most assuredly UNARMED!!! I guess the next time he needs an I.V. or catheter, he can do it himself, since we obviously aren't PROFESSIONALS, an amateur can do it. What does that commercial say...Amateurs practice till they get it right, professionals practice till they can't get it wrong. THATS nursing!
Specializes in Education, Acute, Med/Surg, Tele, etc.
LOL...if I am not a professional..why am I forking out wayyyy to much to a state board just to keep my professional registered license? LOL!!!!! Obviously the state feels I am!
People might flame me for my following response, but here it is. :)
In academia, an associate's degree does not carry much value. Moreover, diplomas do not carry much weight. We worked vigorously for our diplomas and ADNs, but other college graduates laugh them off.
Nurses are still considered "blue-collar" or "high proletariat" in many social class structures because of the hourly pay rates, high volume of manual hands-on work, wearing of uniforms, pink collar origins, and lower educational attainment when compared to other professionals. In addition, many nurses behave unprofessionally when they disrespect each other. Others will never come to fully respect us if we don't treat each other with the utmost respect.
We all worked extraordinarily hard for our nursing educations. Some of us who earned liberal arts and humanities degrees before entering the medical field would readily agree that RN programs possess substantially higher levels of difficulty than other college majors. However, there are reasons why many people do not regard nurses as professionals.
This is merely my $0.02 on the issue.
This is why some people, myself included feel that the minimum education for nurses should be the BSN. We cannot compete if we are complacent about minimal degrees requirements(the ADN itself, not the coursework) I know that and ADN couursework is very similar to the BSN but the public does not understand that, they only see the degree awarded.
Specializes in Education, Acute, Med/Surg, Tele, etc.
WOW...my patients can't even tell a CNA from an RN, a Doc from an RT, lab tech or PT (they all wear lab coats) let alone an ADN from an BSN or Graduate Nurse! I think that is honestly getting a little more ahead of most patients that are ignorant enough to say general statements about the nursing profession than is warrented!
Not to toot my own horn, but I have been very accepted here, and am a great nurse (not perfect, but there is no perfect). I have the skills and insight into nursing that is individual to me, and I do what is needed regarless of the situation...even if I have to learn on the fly! I have worked hard and still working hard towards being better than the day before, and have been chosen to accept a administrative position within two years because of my insight, my personal skills, communication, technical skill and proactive approach towards staff, patients and certainly myself...and get this...I have an ADN! (when I have more money I will pursue the BSN, but I chose to help my family by buying a house that isn't three bedrooms for four people, and doesn't leak when it rains here in glorious Oregon!).
It may take time, but I am a proactive go getter with common sense and a will to always improve for myself, my state (who granted me the ADN because of my interest and skill...they just couldn't afford the four year via poor tax bases) and my patients!
I am certainly no less a nurse than my BSN partners! I am an equal to them, and they actually will tell you that! The stereotypes of ADN are about as rich as the ones against nursing in general! The thing is..and maybe others don't do it...I didn't just learn, I took the info, I made it mine, and I learned to apply it seirously to better all concerned. I don't believe in just education..but what you do with it, own it, and use it right!
Sorry about the soap box there, but some days I get really bummed out with the dissing ADN's! Yeah, I wasn't able to go to four year..but I made the most of my now 8 years after school learning from the school of hard knocks...the REAL world!
And if someone tells me I am not a professional...well I will take that as it comes...I also learned to choose my battles well too!
IN Canada, where this editorial was written, RN entry is baccalaureate level.
Actually, in 2000, the BN was to be the entry level for a nurse. Due to the huge shortage, they opened up the 2 year program again (in Winnipeg anyways). IMHO, they did a huge disservice to the profession of nursing, due to the fact that for example, they did not reduce the amount of time of a pharmacy degree or the medical degree, so it makes us and our program look mickey mouse. It was a short fix, and now, a mere few years later, we have so many nurses, people are getting bumped left and right. Despite whether we have a 2 year or 4 year diploma or degree, we are all professionals, we all have the same goals, the same licensing etc...
More education for nurses (eg bachelor's degree to entry) means having to offer higher wages which means employers will be trying even harder to find ways to have unlicensed staff take over as many nursing tasks as possible. Meanwhile, folks who have bachelor's degrees are even less likely to remain practicing clinical nursing, where the biggest demand is. Employers again find more reason to find ways to replace nurses with unlicensed personnel.
Medicine is fighting a similar battle, I'm sure. The push for NPs and PAs is because they can be paid less than physicians.
There is such a big demand for nurses that I don't think demanding a bachelors degrees is an answer. As it is, many new nurses these days, whatever program they go through, only learn the basics of safe practice in school and learn "real nursing" on the job - sink or swim - with too much to do in too little time. And universities only offer a small percentage of the RN programs out there. How could they possibly take over all the nursing training?
If proponents of the bachelors to entry win, then I'd imagine there'd be a resurgent demand for LPNs in hospitals with stricter differences in practice between in the LPN and RN/BSN than there is today to reflect the difference in levels of education.
Well, I don't have a solution or even a definitive point to make. I just don't think demanding bachelors for nurses is a realistic solution.
Specializes in primary care, pediatrics, OB/GYN, NICU.
What a narrow-minded, ignorant nerd!!! Sounds like maybe he has issues with nurses! (Maybe he was turned down for a date or something...) He only shows his lack of professionalism and what a sheltered little world he works in. He'll probably never get sick because he works alone in a little office bubble and knows nothing about real life or a real job.
Specializes in primary care, pediatrics, OB/GYN, NICU.
ok, flame away, but the reason people don't put us on the same level is bc WE'RE NOT.
until we make the 4 year college degree the basic universal level of entry for RNs, the public will not put us on the level with those who do.
Crunching numbers is not the same as dealing with human lives - regardless of whether one has an ADN or BSN. But this accountant probably would still not consider nursing a profession even if ALL of us were BSN's. He probably has no clue what we do every day.
just kidding
UKRNinUSA, RN
346 Posts
Rick - what you think is irrelevant (no offense intended) -nursing fits the formal definition of a professional as I mentioned earlier. However the public might see us as more of a profession if we were able to charge for our services, not just included in the room rate. One day, when I rule the world, I will make sure this happens - until then it is up to us to advocate for ourselves.