Only if you are not in it for the money

Nurses Career Support

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CE,

Your post was truly heartfelt. How unselfish you must be...Tell me though, you say that when you went into nursing school it was not for the monetary benefits, is it still that way now? Or do you work for free?

Yes, I am being sarcastic but I do not intend to attack you personally. Rather, I wish to point out that in todays society one gets what one pays for and therefore if nurses are paid very little, then patients get very little...

Career- A chosen pursuit; a profession or occupation.

Volunteer- To do charitable or helpful work without pay

When I posted this topic it was only to reflect that the nursing field is not a "lucrative business" in monetary ways. I have know several co-workers who were under the impression that by being a nurse they would make a lot of money. I wanted to express to those considering this field for that reason to re-think before going into the field of Nursing.

I also paid for my education and continue to pay to stay updated on new advances in the Medical field. I also keep my license current even though at the present time I am unable to work a full or part-time paying job do to my current disability. I consider myself lucky that I am able to do some volunteer work in LTC & SNF, even if all I do is help feed those who can not do this for themself, assist them to the bathroom, read to them, talk to them, etc. I was taught that this is part of the patients basic needs that need to be taken care of.

Some nurse's do think that doing that is considering CNA work. Well, I have never asked a co-worker to do anything that I would not do myself, even if it is to "mop the floor" after a patient was incontinent.

There was also a post regarding nurse's that volunteer with the Red Cross. My name is not on that list because when I was injured I had myself removed knowing that I was at the time unable to provide what they would need.

I am hoping that soon I will be able to go back on the list with pride!

I am also able to help current nursing students with their studing and giving them encouragement when needed. I see nothing wrong with helping a future co-worker studying for those "Mid-Terms" that can be so overwelming or helping them to "memorize" the many, many drugs, blood values, etc. that is needed to know for the test. It is easier when you are working because you are able to use info right in front of you unlike when you take a test and have to "know them" without any charts to follow.

I am well aware of the nursing shortage, patient overload, low pay, etc. that has become a crisis to our field.

Before I posted this topic, I did read the other post. I spent aprox 3 days reading the many topics on this subject. One that really caught my attention was the nurse that claimed the salary of $43,000.00 yearly income unfair. Well, where I am located we are lucky to be able to make 1/2 that amount yearly income. And from the other research I have done, most places have the same "cost of living" expenses.

I hope to help bring to light the problems faced with our profession but I refuse to do it by attacking another fellow nurse for what he/she may believe. That is why I want to participate in the MNM next year to help our community and legislators become aware of

the problems that we face. Our entire Medical system is in a crisis. To be able to make this work we must join forces instead of continuing to make "harsh judgements" against our fellow co-workers because of their beliefs.

I have been laughed at, critized & made to feel inadequate at what I am doing. I take this very personally and it hurts to think that so many people take pride in attacking one's beliefs.

I want to thank the few people who posted support and understanding for my belief on this topic. For the others I understand your point of view but why attack a fellow co-worker for how they view the nursing field.

I do have a question for one of the people who posted on this topic: You said that I am not practicing the "Nursing Profession" by volunteering, however you state that you are no longer working as a Nurse? Therefore, why is what I do considered just "Volenteering" and what you do is considered practicing the "Nursing Profession"? Is it because I am not paid for what I do and you are? If this is the case then I quess the nurse's that go to the underdevoled areas of our world and use their skills for free are not really practicing the "Nursing Profession".

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C.E.Worden,LPN

Well,

I believe that Mijourney pointed out the "difference"...:"I think that ceworden's posts reflect a totally different perspective on what nursing practice is all about."

Mi used the words "nursing practice"...

In my opinion "nursing practice" and "nursing profession" are NOT the same....

"Nursing practice" or the practice of nursing in and of itself is not necessarily a profession or career. However, if you scroll up to the top of this page, you will see that this thread "Only if you are not in it for the money" Falls under a string "Would you recomend nursing as a career?"... That string(would you recomend nursing as a career) DOES NOT read "would you recomend volunteering your nursing skills?"

The reason I take issue with you CE, and others that feel that the PROFESSION of nursing should be based on the spirit of volunteerism is because that belief undermines the profession of nursing thereby undermining patient care...Sorry if anyone out there feels "hurt" by my statements or my direct confrontations but I feel that this (the spirit of volunteerism) is why the profession of nursing is experiencing a shortage...Even you CE, pointed out that you are aware of the state of nursing. Here is your statement: "I am well aware of the nursing shortage, patient overload, low pay, etc. that has become a crisis to our field."

You used the words "CRISIS"..."PATIENT OVERLOAD"... "LOW PAY"...

IF CE, you truly care about the needs of patients why then are you condoning the "CRISIS, PATIENT OVERLOAD and LOW PAY" that is causing the current "NURSING SHORTAGE"? By being willing to accept/condone/live with those things you are eliminating the number of nurses who cannot and are not able to volunteer their nursing skills.

Do you understand me yet???

I really love nursing. I love being an ER nurse. I truly enjoy helping people BUT I also have a family and they are my first priority... Unfortunately, I cannot meet my families needs by doing what I like to do the most (ie:nursing). I left the ER where I now work PRN- I used to work there full-time. I always had excellent reviews. The most I ever got in a raise with those excellent reviews was 4 or 5% increases in pay however, the cost of my medical/dental/vision benefits would also increase yearly and for the past few years as a nurse the increase in my benefits eclipsed the 4 or 5% salary increase that I got...So even with a raise every year, my take home (net) pay was lower than the previous year... Even if I did not have a family!!! Guess what? I was not the only one that this was happening to! ALL of the other nurses I worked with complained of the same thing and many of them left as a result...

So, guess what... Now as a result of that exodus the ER is usually short staffed... Guess who suffers as a result? Guess who waits in the waiting room for hours? Guess who vomits in a basin or suffers with abdominal pain in the waiting room because the flow of the ER has been slowed to a crawl because of the lack of manpower?

Do you get my point?

P.S. Sorry that you feel that I am attacking you. Love the sinner, hate the sin... I don't hate you.

I think you best summed it up in your last sentence: "If this is the case then I quess the nurse's that go to the underdevoled areas of our world and use their skills for free are not really practicing the "Nursing Profession".

Yes, you are correct, they are NOT practicing the nursing profession, they are practicing NURSING without pay. ***VOLUNTEERING*** their nursing skills.

[This message has been edited by nursedude (edited October 24, 2000).]

Mona,

Gee... What changed your, um...perspective? Why? Was it something I said or was it a combination of what others have said as well? What do you mean by "enlightened"?

The other day you were apparently disagreeing with me and now ????- How come?

I'd really like to know.

Also, you say that when you first began reading my posts that you were shocked. Why were you shocked? What did I say that was so shocking?

Part of the reason why I want to know these things is because I have always had these feelings about nursing since I entered nursing. Granted, I didn't just come out and tell my bosses that I wasn't making enough money-that is until I found a better paying job... But I have always felt, um...frustrated that many of the other nurses I worked with held the same views as CE and would not even entertain the thought of looking at my perspectives.

The other thing is that it's not just about the money...It's about respect. Why is it that many of the patients we take care of have much better insurance than we do? Why is it that in the role as RN I am considered "replaceable". Why is my profession talked about as being "valued" yet in real life I as a nurse am not valued- more like "replaceable"?

Someone who posted previously made a good analogy, ie: a baseball team- Pitcher/Doctor, Nurse/Catcher, 1st baseman/Resp Therapist etc. - why should one member of the team be less valued than another?

So why Mona, did you change your mind?

nursedude, CE is doing something, she is participating in the million nurse march organizing. You have attacked and unfairly. Should nurses be compenstated for what they do? Most certainly, I think everyone agrees on that point. Working conditions are driving nurses out more than lack of monetary compensation, and that is what ce is working to change. We all know that will not happen quickly and that it will take alot of nurses saying the same thing. As a nurse you have experienced what corporate greed has done to the nurses in your area, but that greed does not only hurt you and other nurses it hurts the patients too. If a nurse went into this career only for the money than they made a mistake, I may be wrong but what I think ce is trying to say is just that. Yes, corp. have used the caring that nurses have for their patients to keep them from striking, to make them cross a picket line and to continue working under conditions that other career fields got rid of a long time ago. What do you think the million nurse march is about? It's not just about the money, in fact it has very little to do with the money, except the money the other side is making off the backs of nurses AND the patient. If ce is being meek in asserting there is a problem than why work towards change in a big way with the mnm? All she is trying to say is that there are many rewards in nursing besides money and you have attacked her for that. However you do seem pretty good at doing that with anyone who doesn't hold your point of view. Can you say backbiting? HOw many other nurses have you seen do the same thing. It's like dumping on the new grad,it's done because too many people find it acceptable and look away or participate. And that is crap. I think we are all aware that nurses, particularly in some areas of the country, are very poorly paid, and you have gone through a nasty experience at the hospital that you worked for, but that does not entitle you to ridicule and be nasty to a fellow nurse. Your sarcasm is not helpful in the least in achieving whatever goal it is you have. And you use that sarcasm frequently towards anyone that does not agree with you, and personally I think thats crap. Stating the way you feel is one thing but masking it is hurtful comments designed to get the your point across in simply unnecessary. You want to state an opinion than fine, but please use a little courtesy when doing so. And by the way a profession is little more according to the dictionary, then someone doing a job that requires appropriate education to do it. That definition could make alot of career fields professions, however professional means the way one conducts themselves, and I think you could at least behave professionally. Snide remarks towards other nurses should not happen. We are all in the same boat, the stress of the job etc... is enough without another nurse feeling that it is ok to attack another. I'm sure you'll cut and paste this and add your nasty comments to this post, your pretty good at it. I don't give a damn, I think it is time for someone to tell you that you can be very rude, your remarks are uncalled for and I for one would appreciate it if you could please state your opinion without the additional sarcasm.

Nurse Dude,

I got involved in this site this month to learn more about nursing issues. When I first began reading your posts, I was very shocked that a nurse would reply the way you had. I will admit though, I have been enlightened. I have always known we are worth more than what we are paid; but since nursing school, there has always been so much talk about the emotional rewards of nursing-and I have experienced them. I just thought that is the way it has to be. But it is time to be paid what we are worth. The more that nurses just accept this lack of compensation and even back it up with thier emotional satisfaction, the less chance we have of changing our situation. Maybe if there were more people backing you up, you would not have to go to the extremes that you have to make your point. Maybe instead of scaring off new nursing students by telling them the pay is not worth it (making the shortage even worse), we should advertise to the local college and university nursing programs about getting involved to make changes. When I finish this post, I plan to go to MNM pages and get as much info to pass out at the full time and part time Nursing Jobs I work(to pay the bills), and also to the local nursing programs. Good Luck in making changes.

THANK YOU MCOUNTRY FOR YOUR REPLY!!!!!!!!!!!

You managed to say what I have wanted to say but was not quite sure how to put.

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C.E.Worden,LPN

rncountry, nursedude has been informed by many of us, including me, that his approach or point of view is not helpful to the conversation in that it antagonizes others, and he has indicated that he will stick with his point of view. Whether we like it or not, he does have a right to his opinion and will no doubt continue posting antagonistic comments where he feels he can score points. However, I will acknowledge that in his posts, he has made some points that I agree with. On the issue of nurse professionalism vs. practice, nursedude, I need more clarification from you on the definition. It's not clear to me that one does not affect the other. Your nursing practice does include the ability to demonstrate professionalism. Like everything else, you can classify professionalism and assign a level from none on up to indicate the approach a nurse takes to his/her practice. Professionalism, in my opinion, is essentially an all-encompassing term and is not just relegated to educational background, skills, experience, network size, salary, and job title.

ceworden, I'm glad you clarified the fact that you are well aware of the plight of nursing, and it's clear you have done your homework. I apologize if I miswrote your point.

In general, I think the mark of a true professional is being able to agree to disagree acknowledging and accepting the fact that your point of view may not be accepted by everyone (I've had to do this on occasion). I feel that stark antagonism undermines the quest for answers and solutions although it does add to the conversation. I think if you discover or feel that a person likes being adversarial and really does not have the best of intentions, then pray for them.

[This message has been edited by Mijourney (edited October 25, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Mijourney (edited October 25, 2000).]

CE, rncountry and mijourney....

Please, please forgive me for attacking and antogonizing CE's perspective. And for that matter, since rncountry and mijourney feel so drawn to come to CE's aid, perhaps somehow you gals feel as though by my attacking/antagonizing CE's perspectives that I had done the same to you two as well.

I just think it is a little perplexing that for whatever reason you all have taken the discussion on this board so personally. As if I were antagonizing you or who you are personally...I feel that because you all seem to be so personally upset that I challenge, disagree with and antagonize CE's perspective that maybe you all have an identity problem or something...

Maybe one of the other nurses in this thread was right when they described some nurses as being codependant, martyrs and unhealthy...

Why is it that you guys take this so personally???

Nurses that behave this way towards one another can make the workplace hell, regardless of any other issues nurses are dealing with.

Gee, I didn't think we were in the workplace??? Um, it's called the internet aka cyberspace...

So say what you think, but as long as the nastiness and sarcasm are dripping from your posts, guess I'll just pass them by, it is not worth my time.

I am so sorry you feel so olbligated to read my posts. Also, I am sorry that I evoke so much influence over you that you for some reason have to reply to my posts...Even if you don't like them?

Don't take it personally. I just think you enjoy attempting to intimidate others, and when I see nurses doing that to each other it really pisses me off. It is high school behavior that does not belong in our profession. You always catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. I see no reason that you should be so sarcastic to people who are attempting to share concerns and/or opinions. But you are, it has been pointed out by others, you continue anyway, and I for one find it unacceptable. Nurses that behave this way towards one another can make the workplace hell, regardless of any other issues nurses are dealing with. I believe that when one finds it to be unacceptable then you should stand up and say so. So I am. Share your opinion, but lose the sarcasm. It is unnessary and immature. I am being direct. I feel you attempt to bully and I don't like bullies. Regardless if it is directed to me or anyone else. Too many good nurses have left their jobs because of behavior just like you exhibit, and that is something that should concern all nurses. We have issues like mandatory overtime, poor staffing, etc... yet nurses leave work places not just because of those issues, but because they are ripped into and treated so badly by fellow nurses. I've seen it too many times and think it is wrong. I feel strongly about this and willing to say so without trying to mince words. It is totally uncalled for and only when other nurses are willing to tell the bully to lay off will that part of nursing change. You have valid points, but they get lost by being wrapped in sarcasm, therefore you are not effective except to get a rise out of people. A waste of time because what gets focused on is not the need for change, but your words. I will stand up for what I think is right, and if that means defending someone else than I will do it. So say what you think, but as long as the nastiness and sarcasm are dripping from your posts, guess I'll just pass them by, it is not worth my time. I want to read things that enhance the discussion, not detract from them.

Now nursedude, didn't we have a discussion under another topic about taking things personally? Didn't I tell you that I would not clench my teeth over your posts? Since I don't know you in reality, I can't take you personally especially when you may be approaching this bb from the standpoint of a competition or game (par for the course for nurses). If it's any consolation, I think the fact that you responded to our posts in the manner you did indicated that perhaps you've taken us personally for "defending" ce? Maybe we offended you? In fact, I am flattered that you took the time to respond to my post. Like you, I know that my point of view may draw detractors and challengers such as yourself, but as you point out, this is cyberspace, and posters will let their hair down and even remove clothes. However, it's been my experience that whatever approach a poster takes in cyberspace, there tends to be a spillover in reality. Perhaps what we're dealing with is more than an identity crisis. Nevertheless, continue "out of the box." It gives us food for thought.

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