NYC CNMs: FRONTIER OR SUNY DOWNSTATE?????!

**LibraSunCNM, BSN, MSN, CNM** · Apr 1, 2015

I'm a midwife in NYC but did not attend either program. From my experience meeting students/graduates of both programs, they are both excellent. However, the biggest difference, as you have already stated, is that at Frontier you have to find your own preceptor. If you already have ties to the midwifery community in this area and feel confident you could find a preceptor, I would say either program is a good choice. They're also both pretty affordable. However, if you don't have connections, I would strongly advise Downstate, to avoid that headache altogether. I get emails forwarded to me from the NYC Midwives chapter from students cold-emailing, begging for a preceptor. For me personally, midwifery school was stressful enough without having to worry about finding my own preceptor.

Ria28 · Apr 1, 2015

Thanks LibraSun! You make a good point! When I called frontier they said that it shouldn't be an issue but I am skeptical. In any case, I'll apply to suny downstate first and see what happens! Thanks for your advice!

**LibraSunCNM, BSN, MSN, CNM** · Apr 1, 2015

Yes, I would be VERY skeptical of the statement, "It shouldn't be an issue." There are already 3 brick-and-mortar midwifery programs in NYC, constantly vying for clinical placements for their students. It will definitely be an issue if you're out there on your own trying to do the same thing. Good luck!

Ria28 · Apr 2, 2015

I agree totally! Will just have to see what happens. Thanks LibraSun!

Simplyroses · Apr 3, 2015

The Accreditation Commission for Midwifery Education (ACME) sets VERY high standards. If a midwifery school is accredited, then it is fairly guaranteed to be a good didactic education. To decide if a school is right for you depends very much upon your situation. It is very difficult to work full-time and do full-time class/clinical hours. It can be very challenging to find your own preceptors. Schools that find and vet your preceptors for you may be a bit more expensive for tuition but they are also providing the service. A school that has a faculty practice or has cultivated great relationships with experienced preceptors might be of value to you.

Ria28 · Apr 6, 2015

Thanks Simply. Suny's part time is like fill time hours. Frontier is accredited but not sure how the clinical works at this point. Hoping that students who have gone there can offer their experience on finding preceptors, especially in ny

CNMidwife2Be · Apr 6, 2015

Hi Ria,

I'm a Frontier student but was also accepted into SUNY a Downstate. I actually chose Frontier because I chose to leave NYC. I have been overall very happy with Frontier and feel they place a strong emphasis on physiological birth, EBP as well as OOH birth, which has been great. I've also heard wonderful things about Downstate and had a lovely interview experience. I actually am quite happy about choosing my own preceptors because it has allowed me to find ones who are more philosophically aligned with how I hope to practice. In terms of how positive choosing your own preceptor is, I think it really depends on the area. If there are many available midwives it gives you flexibility. If there are only a few or there is a lot of competition, then I think it can make it harder. I also have some flexibility and will be going to a neighboring state for a portion of my clinicals. I've also heard of a number of brick and mortar programs that had to delay a student's clinicals because they could not find enough placements, so even programs like Yale or Downstate aren't guaranteed to be on time. I do get the impression that it's very competitive in the NYC area though, so I think if it were me I might consider Downstate. But I can't say for sure how hard it would be as a Frontier student. Do you know the group ACNM student midwives group on Facebook? There are a lot of SNMs from both programs - might be a good place to ask. Hope this helps!

klone, MSN, RN · Apr 6, 2015

Thanks Simply. Suny's part time is like fill time hours. Frontier is accredited but not sure how the clinical works at this point. Hoping that students who have gone there can offer their experience on finding preceptors, especially in ny

I didn't go to Frontier (at least, not at the point of the clinical placement) but I work at/supervise a midwifery clinic, and our clinic gets many students. I would inquire with current/former Frontier students who live in the community regarding what they did for clinical placement. Frontier does assist with clinical placement, and in a large community where there have been many past Frontier grads, there is usually already an infrastructure in place for making sure students have preceptors.

Our facility's midwifery practice has about 28 midwives, and we place priority on Frontier and our local university's CNM program first. We've never had a Frontier student who was not able to find clinical placement.

Usually students will go with a few different places in order to get all their hours in - as many students desire to experience OOH births, our local FSBC regularly takes Frontier students. There is also a CNM homebirth midwife in the community who is willing to precept students. Because the numbers just aren't there, they will also be placed at one of the midwifery practices that work in one of the local hospitals, and they get all the numbers they would ever need there. And then, there are 2-3 largish practices in the community that also have full clinic time where the student will precept with one or two midwives to get their hours on prenatal care, gyn, etc.

I would say that in any large city, you probably won't have too much difficulty finding clinical placement through Frontier.

Frontier has a great reputation in our community, and the students typically have no problems finding clinical placement. One observation I have is - due to how Frontier does it's clinical portion (at the end, after all the didactics are done), it's been my experience that Frontier students start out a bit lost when it comes to clinicals. On the flipside, other programs that have clinical rotations throughout the program, the students typically seem more comfortable. It seems like the learning curve is a bit steeper for most Frontier students.

Another thing I've observed about most midwifery programs is the emphasis is on pregnancy/childbirth (as it should be, or she would be in a WHNP program), so when they get to their clinic rotation, most students are very lacking in gyn, women's health, etc. In my observations, it's that way across the board, not just with Frontier. Our clinic is VERY challenging and VERY gyn heavy, so any student who does their clinic time with us gets a very solid education on gynecology. :)

Ria28 · Apr 14, 2015

Thanks so much for your advice! Yeah I agree it might be competitive in nyc. Such a tough decision! I will check out the acnm page to see if anyone is willing to share their thoughts. Thanks so much again!

Ria28 · Apr 14, 2015

Interesting point about frontiers placement of clinical studies in their curriculum. Didn't realize that. Def think it would help to have it earlier. Thanks for your advice, will def look into it!

scampos99 · Apr 24, 2017

Hello Ria28, I'm wondering how the process for SUNY Downstate have gone. Do you mind me asking more about that? Thank you.