I'm currently about to finish my first year of nursing school. So far, it has been pretty fun. From the beginning, I planned on going to graduate school or my MSN to be a nurse practitioner. However, as more time passes, I feel a stronger pull toward med. school. Here's where my problem comes in. This is my 3rd year in college and I have 2 more years to go for RN and 1 year after that for APN (my school has a program where the last year of your BSN counts for the first year of your MSN if you are eligible). If I want to go to med school, I then have to take 2 semesters of chemistry (took phys. chem - doesn't count), 2 semester of organic chem, and 2 semesters of physics. Then after that I would have to take the MCAT, pass, and then actually get accepted to med school.
I'm having trouble deciding whether I just want to keep going and be done in 3 years and practically be a dr. or if I should get my BSN, extra pre-reqs and apply for med school. I'm just not sure if I can spend that much time in school. My wife will be graduating in the spring of 09 and will be ready to start a family(kids) while (if I go to med school) i will still have 6 years of school left! I just love the "dr. type" stuff more than the "nursing type" stuff (aka physiology, etc. rather than pt teaching) Plus it's the prestige or "Dr." rather than ",APN" and people are like "what's that?"
HELP!!!!
p.s. sorry for long post - just had my brain racked with this:icon_roll
Let me share some of my experience as food for thought. I decided on nursing school because I enjoyed the health sciences & was on the pre-med track by default but really wasn't sure about pursuing medicine. I figured nursing would get me right in there where I could get first hand experience and meanwhile I'd have a fall-back profession if I decided I didn't want to continue on in medicine.
As I noted, I was disappointed with the lack of depth in my nursing education. And it also turned out that I didn't really enjoy acute care. I found critical care the most intellectually stimulating, but upon graduation there was a bottleneck for employment for new grads and many classmates had to persist for several months to get hired on.
I wasn't that excited about acute care to begin with so when I was offered a position in a community health program, I grabbed it. I eventually took a refresher course and tried the acute care thing again. I was like many of the newbies you can read about it in the first year nursing forum.
I was totally overwhelmed by the multitude of competing responsibilities and lack of preparedness to quickly assess and address patient issues. My school was the type that figured we'd have plenty of time on the job to nail basic skills down, though we did have the most basic of basics drilled into us ad nauseum (5 rights of medication administration, preventing skin breakdowns and accidental falls, emphasizing the importance of 'turn, cough, & deep breathe', etc). After trying a couple of different clinical nursing jobs, I decided didn't enjoy it enough to put up with the standard year of feeling totally incompetent and found other health related work.
The point I'm making by telling this is that nursing can be a great foundation for any number of further pursuits. For me, though, I ended up so frustrated by it that I didn't get the most important foundation nursing provides... which is the experience gained by working as a nurse for several years. If I'm going to be successful in that type of job, I need more than what the average nursing program provides. I need more in depth understanding of the pathophys to feel confident of my grasp of the knowledge. And I need a smoother transition process to switch from student to full-fledged professional (many acute care settings expect nurses to work with a full load within 2-3 months, though some programs are increasing this).
If I had realized a passion for working with patients, I probably would've found a way to make it work for me. But for myself, I learned that when it comes to the day in and out grind, I prefer work that allows me to pace myself (whereas in most clinical work, patient needs set the pace). I currently work with clinical information and am finding it a great fit. So I have made use of my nursing education & am darn glad I didn't pursue medical school (though maybe I'd be making more, I doubt I'd be working as clinician, though who knows...). But I still wish I understood more about physiology and pathophys and have 'what if' thoughts about if I'd studied physiology as an undergrad as opposed to nursing. But having that RN has helped me obtain jobs that even aren't clinical in nature because it proves a minimum amount of exposure to patient care and medical issues.
I'm in no way implying that you are like me and wouldn't excel at or enjoy clinical nursing. I'm just sharing my experience for what it's worth.
I'm presently taking pharmacology and pathophysiology for my nursing program and it's driving me crazy because it's sooo superficial. I find it very hard to learn when I don't have any depth to what I'm studying. I've therefore begun purchasing the med school books so that I can actually understand the content rather than just looking at the nursing process.
Personally, I think being a physician would be much more interesting but it comes at a very steep price - one which I ultimately wasn't willing to pay.
You really need to be talking to some physicians to understand what is their lot in life before you make such a drastic decision. You should also figure out what area of medicine most interests you and see what NP roles are available there. Next you should check out the authority granted to NPs in the various states and decide if your desired location will provide what you're looking for professionally.
If I were as interested as you are (and once I was), I'd start taking the necessary classes so that you can apply to med school and get a good MCAT study guide so that you have an idea of what you're facing in the admissions game.
I'm presently taking pharmacology and pathophysiology for my nursing program and it's driving me crazy because it's sooo superficial. I find it very hard to learn when I don't have any depth to what I'm studying. I've therefore begun purchasing the med school books so that I can actually understand the content rather than just looking at the nursing process.
Great idea!
You really need to be talking to some physicians to understand what is their lot in life before you make such a drastic decision. You should also figure out what area of medicine most interests you and see what NP roles are available there. Next you should check out the authority granted to NPs in the various states and decide if your desired location will provide what you're looking for professionally.
If I were as interested as you are (and once I was), I'd start taking the necessary classes so that you can apply to med school and get a good MCAT study guide so that you have an idea of what you're facing in the admissions game.
Good advice! And again, I'd suggest also checking out Physician Assistant programs as well.
Thanks guys. Truthfully, all things aside - i WANT to be a doctor. However, I'm not sure if I'm willing to pay the price it comes with. They are ALL in debt out of med school, they barely make more than an NP and that difference is washed out by malpractice insurance, and they have a lot less "free" time. I have a wife and thankfully she has said she will support me 100% with whatever I do, but I want to be able to spend time with her and my kids in the future. I'm not sure if I can and/or want to pay the sacrifices of med school and a career as a doctor.
So far, i'm actually leaning towards NP. I want to get as close as possible to a true doctor without having to give up so much time, money, and resources to do it.
My ideal job would be:
A)working 3 days/wk in a clinic seeing pts and prescribing meds, and the other 2 days in the ER at a hospital
B)working 5 days/wk in a clinic and "making rounds" for my pts at the hospital
C) Some combo of those: I would love to work in a clinic and in the ER
Clinic: I love assessing pts and trying to figure out what they need
ER: I love the fast-paced, all-out action and excitement - adrenalin - WHOO!
Thanks guys. Truthfully, all things aside - i WANT to be a doctor. However, I'm not sure if I'm willing to pay the price it comes with.
Well, you've identified the issue. Recognize that they pay a very steep price in the med school/residency process, too.
Recognize also that it's pretty much a one-way street. The costs (money, time, and energy) are enormous and make redirection very hard.
They are ALL in debt out of med school, they barely make more than an NP and that difference is washed out by malpractice insurance
Well, yes they are mostly in debt. However, after residency, most physicians make substantially more money than do NPs, often by integer multiples. I would suggest some thorough research on that issue. Check out the AAMC website -- they've got a great paper that looks at the financial impact of going into medicine.,
and they have a lot less "free" time.
Again, a generalization which isn't necessarily true. Our pediatrician works only three days per week and has been part time for at least 7 years. She earns enough p/t to meet her lifestyle needs. Many of the doctors working at our regional HMO have pretty normal hours. Certain specialties come very close to standard 9-5 hours.
Make sure you do your research thoroughly.
I second jjjoy's advice to look into PA programs, as well.
Thanks guys. Truthfully, all things aside - i WANT to be a doctor.
Why?
They are ALL in debt out of med school,
Probably most of us. Personally, I'm not, but I'm military, so things are a bit different in my situation. And while we are often in debt, that debt tends to get paid very quickly. Last I heard, the average physician pays their educational debt off in 7 years post-residency. Given that the average debt is $140,000, that's not bad at all.
they barely make more than an NP and that difference is washed out by malpractice insurance, and they have a lot less "free" time.
Medicine is a business. You make as much as you work. But this is also highly variable by specialty. A general pediatrician may only clear $120,000, but Anesthesia can easily clear $200,000-$300,000, and subspecialists in Orthopaedics and Neurosurgery routinely make a half mil or more a year.
Moral of the story: if you want the cash, and have the intelligence, the money is just sitting there waiting for you.
So far, i'm actually leaning towards NP. I want to get as close as possible to a true doctor without having to give up so much time, money, and resources to do it.
People who do nursing or other medical careers who really want to be doctors are, in my limited experience, the worst people to work with. If you don't like what you are doing, and are pining for something else, you're not going to be very effective.
Clinic: I love assessing pts and trying to figure out what they need
ER: I love the fast-paced, all-out action and excitement - adrenalin - WHOO!
Honestly, your description of these environments is very idealized, and I kind of wonder how much experience you actually have in either of these areas. Have you spent time volunteering or shadowing?
Khao05- have you had your critical care rotation(s)? If not, you might want to hang around for that. While you're still stuck with care plans, the nurses are much more involved with the immediate physiology of patients such as titrating drugs based on lab values. The physicians and nurses generally also work more closely since the nurses have fewer, more complex patients. And fewer patients means having more in depth knowledge of the patients and their conditions that you are caring for. Just more food for thought!
Thanks for all the replies! I think jjjoy may have gotten closest to what I'm feeling. I hate care plans and I hate "nursing dx" - trying to avoid medical dx that i'm not qualified to use. (Bugs me) Mainly, I want to see pts, order labs, interpret labs, prescribe meds, etc. And while an NP can do these things, there's still something lost there - still a gap between NP and MD.
I just hate how in nursing school, they always hit the top surface of things and going any deeper is just "too much" - we should "call the dr" and ask him/her. I guess I just have a hunger for knowledge - I absolutely LOVE my pathophysiology class (tought by an md which makes it that much cooler) because we go in depth - stuff they would NEVER mention in nursing school.
If I could be convinced that I could get as much joy/satisfaction out of being an NP as I would being an MD then I would just stick to what I'm doing. Truthfully, I want people to tell me to just do the NP because it's less time, money, and stress.
I may need a pro/con type thing. Maybe someone can list for me all the things an NP can do the same as an MD and then the things exclusive to MD.
Hmm, maybe it's your nursing program? My program had pathophysiology first semester and it was VERY in-depth. I think that because nurses tend to "specialize" these days, we don't need to know the in-depth patho of every single thing, just our areas of specialty. I think that you might possibly be underestimating the knowledge base of an RN; it is extremely important for the RN to know the action of the medications he/she is giving to the patients and how the patient will respond to the med (very patho based). For example, it would be very important for a nurse to know how a levophed drip affects the patient and what actions to take based on the patient's response to it. They have to constantly monitor certain parameters and know what to watch for. Things like that are no BS. Nurses have to be quick thinking in their actions; not all decisions are based on what the doctor says. The whole point of nurses having a license is to show that they are competent to make the decisions necessary to keep people safe.
Sorry I got on my soapbox for a minute, but I couldn't help but think that maybe you aren't completely aware of the critical thinking requirements of an RN. If you want to be an MD, then you should follow your heart and do what you think is best, but by all means, make sure you know what each professional entails before making your final decision. Good luck
Just to throw my 2 cents in. I was a biology major, senior year, took the MCAT and passed, had the grades, had the recommendation and I could have gotten into med school. but the hang up was that i couldnt bring myself to fill out the application for med school. I was so burned out from my biology classes i couldnt go on. So i got my BS in biology and turned around and went and got my BSN.
my point is that if you want to be a Dr. do it. if you cant bring yourself to do nursing then dont do it. but do your soul searching also. i do wonder how life would be if i was a dr. but i know that i am 100% happy right now with my life. i love clocking in and clocking out. when i am off i am off and the money is good. for med school though you gotta have that bachelors, so like the others have said either finish your BSN or get a bachelors in something like biology.
there are also other options besides NP. you could do CRNA. or a different track would be PA. dr.s are shelling out big money now for malpractice so even if you make a lot of money as a dr you gotta shell it out to cya. now another good option if you dont want to go in debt paying for med school, you can join the military - they pay for med school, give you a stipend and cover your malpractice insurance while working for the armed services. i agree with the others saying get your BSN first since you are already in the program. it might be more of a pain getting into another bachelors program. get some experience. check out a Trauma ICU - it is intense and you gotta be on your game. and a lot times depending on the dr. you call them and tell them what you think the pt needs and they say "ok". ok i will stop rambling.
yea...my wife's sister is doing the same thing you did. She went through high school with over a 4.0, scored a 34 on her ACT went to college in the Honors Biology Pre-med program and is about to graduate this spring with a 4.0 - catch? NOOOW she doesn't want to go to med school.:icon_roll Sometimes I am jealous because she has it all right there and let it go - i'm trying to figure out what I want to do and IF I can even do it.
I'm leaning toward NP though...seems like it's winning the pro/con shootout.
By the way - whats the difference between an NP and PA? I thought they were 2 different names for the same thing, but apparently not - people seem to be making a distinction.
physician assistants are trained in the medical model-meaning similar to the way that physician's are trained in medical school. pa's come from various backgrounds of medicine, for example, medical technologists, paramedics, nurses, phlebotomists, medical assistants, radiology technicians, etc. nurse practitioners have a nursing background and are trained in an advanced nursing model. pa's receive 18 months of didactic training followed be 15 months of clinical training (clinical rotations) at gvsu. np's can graduate with less additional clinical training due to their past clinical experience as nurses. pa's are dependent practitioners meaning they cannot practice without a physician's license. np's can practice in many states independently.
you can do whatever you want to do. you just gotta make the decision and go for it. my dad told me i wasted my life when i told him i wasnt going to med school. thank goodness he only said that once. i knew how my life was going to be by being a dr. i knew deep down that i wanted a family most of all. and now i am married and my husband is in the military. being a nurse is perfect because we can move anywhere and i will always have a job and have time for a family. it will all work out in the end, you just gotta figure out the game plan. keep talking with your wife and a plan will materialize.
Well, I've done a lot of research. I've talked to my university's pre-med advisory committee, talked to current med students where I plan to go, and asked doctors that I know. I'm about 98% sure I'm going to switch my major to pre-med biology. There is one guy, however, telling me not to do it. He says, "you'll never see your wife", "she'll leave you", "you'll be in debt forever", and "they'll only pay 20k during residency", and the classic "you can be a good dr. OR husband - not both". I have a HAAARRD time believing that.
So what's the truth? The med school i'm looking at is ~35k a year which means a total of ~140k for all 4 years. How much do they generally pay a dr. during residency (probably going to be a general practitioner)? Apparently dr.s CAN have a life per "♪♫ in my♥" post.
jjjoy, LPN
2,801 Posts
Let me share some of my experience as food for thought. I decided on nursing school because I enjoyed the health sciences & was on the pre-med track by default but really wasn't sure about pursuing medicine. I figured nursing would get me right in there where I could get first hand experience and meanwhile I'd have a fall-back profession if I decided I didn't want to continue on in medicine.
As I noted, I was disappointed with the lack of depth in my nursing education. And it also turned out that I didn't really enjoy acute care. I found critical care the most intellectually stimulating, but upon graduation there was a bottleneck for employment for new grads and many classmates had to persist for several months to get hired on.
I wasn't that excited about acute care to begin with so when I was offered a position in a community health program, I grabbed it. I eventually took a refresher course and tried the acute care thing again. I was like many of the newbies you can read about it in the first year nursing forum.
I was totally overwhelmed by the multitude of competing responsibilities and lack of preparedness to quickly assess and address patient issues. My school was the type that figured we'd have plenty of time on the job to nail basic skills down, though we did have the most basic of basics drilled into us ad nauseum (5 rights of medication administration, preventing skin breakdowns and accidental falls, emphasizing the importance of 'turn, cough, & deep breathe', etc). After trying a couple of different clinical nursing jobs, I decided didn't enjoy it enough to put up with the standard year of feeling totally incompetent and found other health related work.
The point I'm making by telling this is that nursing can be a great foundation for any number of further pursuits. For me, though, I ended up so frustrated by it that I didn't get the most important foundation nursing provides... which is the experience gained by working as a nurse for several years. If I'm going to be successful in that type of job, I need more than what the average nursing program provides. I need more in depth understanding of the pathophys to feel confident of my grasp of the knowledge. And I need a smoother transition process to switch from student to full-fledged professional (many acute care settings expect nurses to work with a full load within 2-3 months, though some programs are increasing this).
If I had realized a passion for working with patients, I probably would've found a way to make it work for me. But for myself, I learned that when it comes to the day in and out grind, I prefer work that allows me to pace myself (whereas in most clinical work, patient needs set the pace). I currently work with clinical information and am finding it a great fit. So I have made use of my nursing education & am darn glad I didn't pursue medical school (though maybe I'd be making more, I doubt I'd be working as clinician, though who knows...). But I still wish I understood more about physiology and pathophys and have 'what if' thoughts about if I'd studied physiology as an undergrad as opposed to nursing. But having that RN has helped me obtain jobs that even aren't clinical in nature because it proves a minimum amount of exposure to patient care and medical issues.
I'm in no way implying that you are like me and wouldn't excel at or enjoy clinical nursing. I'm just sharing my experience for what it's worth.