excelsior accepted in ?? states

[1dreday]

hi all just wonderin if anyone knew which states do or don't accept excelsior college? I think calif doesn't and colorodo is about to not accept them after the first of the year but other than that I have no idea?

thanks andre'

[Sheri257]

nursing school only gives you exposure to hospital environments. it doesn't churn out fresh critical care nurses infinitely qualified to practice. it doesn't turn out nurses qualified to work in any specialty unit. it turns out green, rank amatuers. beginners. so you are only a qualified beginner, and you'll start in med surge, just like an excelsior graduate. you will learn on the job, and your achievement will depend on your ability and commitment, not on which school you became a beginner with.

i'm extremely happy to have a paramedic education. i know infinitely more about cardiology, airway management and emergency medicine than a new, green nurse. i can jump on a code and work it like this beginner couldn't dream of doing. you can't even make a serious comparison.

And you think the California BON is on an ego trip? I didn't realize that you were such an expert on traditional grad training, performance and nursing in general. Especially since you haven't attended a traditional RN program and you're not an RN yet.

I'm sure traditional education needs to improve. If I had my way, we'd be in the hospital two days a week instead of one. But there just isn't enough time to get everything done as it is. Even LVN's who've had these clinicals and classes before are struggling and two of them flunked out of my program yesterday. Still, even with the limitations, some clinicals have got to be better than no clinicals at all. EC is going to the other extreme with only the CPNE as a test of clinical ability, especially with non-LVN's.

But you're missing a key point here: at least some traditional programs do go out of their way to give students more hands on experience above and beyond the clinical requirements.

Many of us will not be "green, rank amateur beginners" when we graduate because we participate in the school's extern program, which allows us to work at various hospitals. I worked as an extern during the summer, and I'll start with another hospital during the holidays.

I hear what RN34TX is saying about the ICU, although I'm curious as to whether this happened in CA or TX. I wouldn't be surprized if some people might have problems but, I can say that I've already been offered a job in ICU when I graduate. Apparently they haven't had too many problems orienting new grads because I know quite a few people from my program that went straight to ICU.

[RN34TX]

I hear what RN34TX is saying about the ICU, although I'm curious as to whether this happened in CA or TX. I wouldn't be surprized if some people might have problems but, I can say that I've already been offered a job in ICU when I graduate. Apparently they haven't had too many problems orienting new grads because I know quite a few people from my program that went straight to ICU.

My point was not to say that new grads are not appropriate for ICU, some do believe this but I do not.

I was saying that SOME new grads had problems, like any students from any program working at any hospital.

My point was that after graduating from EC and wondering how much of a difference it would have made had I attended a traditional LVN to RN program, I ended up having even less faith than before that it would have made me a better nurse going through the various rotations and that i was "missing something."

I saw too many "traditional" grads not doing well and it cemented in my mind that all of the hype about the necessity of clinical rotations for LVN's becoming RN's really wouldn't have helped me so EC was the better choice for me.

At the same time, I didn't dog the traditional grads that weren't doing well saying that it was because they had substandard educations.

I've been a nurse long enough to know that there is a lot more to it than that.

My experience was in TX but I'm curious as to what difference that would make to you.

I hope that your question wasn't a gateway for you to start going on about how much higher the standards are at the CA RN schools than they are in TX and that the same situation wouldn't happen in CA because the RN schools are so much better there.

[Sheri257]

Don't you think it's time that maybe we start to evaluate the actual necessity of these clinicals if so many of us have been practicing as RN's for many years without problems despite not getting all of the clinical rotations required by current CA law?

I do see your point here and it is a valid point. But here's why I think the board has a problem with it. It's not just traditional vs. distance education.

Basically other states like Kansas and Colorado are saying ... we're not sure these people are safe, so let them practice somewhere else to be sure before we'll take them. But I just don't think the California board wants to even go there: let's find out if these people are safe after the fact. That's not a very safe policy. And if you allow EC, you are essentially endorsing that policy.

For someone like yourself who was an experienced LPN, a lot of this probably doesn't apply. And maybe it's not fair to lump someone like yourself in with all the other EC students but, that's the potential problem with EC lumping all of these people together, experienced or not, with their broad criteria.

Traditional programs have their flaws, no doubt. And traditional programs have had their share of new grads who have killed patients. But at least there are some safeguards.

Case in point: We have had instances where students did do really dangerous things in the hospital and they were kicked out the program. These were things that would only have been picked up by observing students in the hospital, not just with clinical tests. At least someone is watching them for two years to see if they will do something dangerous.

Do they catch it all the time? No. But they do catch a lot of the problems. When dangerous practices have been caught after the fact, the hospital reported this to the school and clinical policies were changed to try to address these problems. Where are these kinds of safeguards in the EC program? Do you wait until they're RN's to find out?

I'm curious ... with your experience ... are you really comfortable with non-experienced LPN's fresh out of school ... or non-LPN's with no nursing experience whatsoever hitting the floor with only the CPNE exam to their credit? Do you really think it's wise to put patient's lives in these people's hands and find out whether or not they're safe practionioners after the fact?

I just think the board is really uncomfortable with endorsing that kind of system in any form or fashion, which is why they said no to the whole thing.

[Sheri257]

I hope that your question wasn't a gateway for you to start going on about how much higher the standards are at the CA RN schools than they are in TX and that the same situation wouldn't happen in CA because the RN schools are so much better there.

No ... I was curious because if it was a California school, I just wanted to know which one it was.

That's all.

:)

[RN34TX]

I'm curious ... with your experience ... are you really comfortable with non-experienced LPN's fresh out of school ... or non-LPN's with no nursing experience whatsoever hitting the floor with only the CPNE exam to their credit? Do you really think it's wise to put patient's lives in these people's hands and find out whether or not they're safe practionioners after the fact?

I just think the board is really uncomfortable with endorsing that kind of system in any form or fashion, which is why they said no to the whole thing.

That's a tough question for me to anwer without "what if's" and other qualifiers.

My first instinct is to say absolutely not.

The EC program is designed for the experienced acute care LPN/LVN or paramedics, possibly others that I can't think of off the top of my head, but if I were to have any say in the matter, that would "generally" be my opinion on the matter.

However, the reason that I hesitate to make such a blanket statement is that it reminds me of pompous BSN's who preach that BSN should be the minimal entry into nursing licensure. It's easy for them to say that because they have BSN's.

In turn, I was an experienced acute care LVN, so now I'm going to turn around and say that only people with my background/qualifications are fit to go through the EC program to become RN's because that's how I did it.

Do you see where I'm going here?

IMHO, the lack of stricter guidelines and admission requirements was the true spawn of the controversy surrounding state board concerns about licensing such grads to begin with, and although I could never prove it, I suspect that all of the quibbling over clinical rotation hours would never have been born to begin with had admission criteria been stricter in the first place. I think that we both agree here, right?

But how can I say that only experienced LVN's should be allowed to get their RN though EC if, let's say, an inexperienced MA who's education and experience doesn't go beyond outpatient care, is passing the exams, the CPNE, and then the NCLEX?

IMHO, the EC program and NCLEX should be designed so that these types of people wouldn't be able to pass and get an RN license to begin with.

And if they are passing and becoming RN's, then what does that say about the validity of EC's nursing exams, the CPNE, and even the NCLEX-RN?

Ok I'm done with my qualifiers. Here's my answer: No, I'm not comfortable with either group "hitting the floor" as new RN's or even "being" RN's in the first place.

However, no one (new LVN or RN) should be hitting the floor as a new grad without a considerably lengthy preceptorship/orientation, whether they had an externship or not.

This is where the preceptor, other colleagues, etc. should be picking up on potential problem areas before they are let loose to take care of their own group of patients.

I just have a hard time believing that if I were precepting a new grad that somehow passed through EC with no nursing background/experience, that I wouldn't have picked on on potential problems and acted accordingly.

But maybe I have done that and never knew about it.

But if that did happen to me, then what does that say about my abilities as a preceptor and the entire orientation to begin with?

This is where I still don't understand the stories about "fly by night MA's and EMT-B's" becoming RN's in CA and hurting or killing patients.

Where were their preceptors, managers, co-workers, etc. when all of this was going on?

I just can't believe that no problems were surfacing during orientation and they were turned loose on their own and started making big mistakes.

Or maybe problems did surface during orientation but they let them loose anyway due to staffing crunches, budget, etc.

Now that I can believe.

[Drysolong]

I may not have read all the posts thoroughly, so please forgive me if my post is redundant. But, has it been overlooked that you can't enroll in EC unless you are an LPN or Paramedic? Although, you don't have to be working, theoretically, an EC student is not someone who doesn't have clinical experience. I was thinking about the posts from "lizz" more specifically. Thanks.

[RN34TX]

I may not have read all the posts thoroughly, so please forgive me if my post is redundant. But, has it been overlooked that you can't enroll in EC unless you are an LPN or Paramedic? Although, you don't have to be working, theoretically, an EC student is not someone who doesn't have clinical experience. I was thinking about the posts from "lizz" more specifically. Thanks.

The entry requirements have indeed tightened in recent years, but no, they still allow a much broader group of student backgrounds into the program beyond LPN's and paramedics.

In addition, an EC student can most definitely be someone who doesn't have clinical experience.

EC will verify licensure or certification prior to enrolling, but no amount of actual clinical experience is required or verified prior to enrolling.

A new grad LPN or whatever can enroll immediately.

The program is designed for students with clinical experience, but this experience is not required to enroll or graduate.

[Sheri257]

This is where I still don't understand the stories about "fly by night MA's and EMT-B's" becoming RN's in CA and hurting or killing patients.

Where were their preceptors, managers, co-workers, etc. when all of this was going on?

I just can't believe that no problems were surfacing during orientation and they were turned loose on their own and started making big mistakes.

Or maybe problems did surface during orientation but they let them loose anyway due to staffing crunches, budget, etc.

Now that I can believe.

At the hospital I worked last summer, a new grad was hired out of Texas. She was promised six weeks of orientation. But when she got here, the hospital insisted that she work on her own after just one week because they were short. Now, this hospital did have a lot of problems, and part of the reason she was on her own too soon was because they couldn't keep the RN's they already had.

But, if you read the new grad forum on this BB, this apparently is not that uncommon. If by chance she did make any major mistakes (and I'm not saying she did), I could see how they wouldn't always catch it because she really didn't have much preceptorship to begin with.

Now that's not to say that traditional grads don't need proper orientation. They do. And that's not to say that traditional grads don't make major mistakes either. But, at least, there is a safety net ... so to speak ... to hopefully catch major problems before they graduate. Does it always work? No.

However, the state BON does require the school to routinely send out surveys to all the hospitals so that new grad performance can be monitored. When incidents do occur, the school is required to change clinical criteria to try to prevent these incidents from happening again.

None of this "quality control," so to speak, happens with EC because, obviously, there's no clinicals to begin with. And when you consider the fact that respiratory techs, psych techs, students who have only completed 50 percent of nursing school, etc. are accepted into EC ... well ... the absence of additional safety nets is a concern.

So while your arguments do have a lot of merit, and I do actually agree with a lot of what you're saying ... I just think people have a hard time imaging how they can endorse this type of program, even if that means denying licensure to experienced RN's in other states.

[RN34TX]

No ... I was curious because if it was a California school, I just wanted to know which one it was.

That's all.

:)

But even if it was in CA, and you did in fact, know which one it was, would it still make any difference?

My point is that the other new grads I was referring to that weren't doing well came from different schools, both ADN and BSN.

All were new nurses period, none were LVN's or ADN's first so it was all new to them.

I believe that all nursing schools graduate both top of the line as well as barely making it through nurses.

EC is hardly unique in graduating those who "slip through the cracks" clinical rotations or not.

If it was only one school that graduated nurses who had a difficult time adjusting to ICU, would you just assume that it was the school and not the new grad him/herself?

Don't get me wrong, I fully believe that there are some nursing schools that are better than others, but even the best schools will have grads that you will wonder about and wouldn't want to have taking care of you.

You probably already have classmates that you wouldn't want to be taking care of you if they graduated and became RN's and they aren't even EC students.

[RN34TX]

So while your arguments do have a lot of merit, and I do actually agree with a lot of what you're saying ... I just think people have a hard time imaging how they can endorse this type of program, even if that means denying licensure to experienced RN's in other states.

And I, even as an EC grad, agree with a lot of what you are saying as well.

If I ended up being a casualty/martyr of licensure denial in an attempt to wash a state clean of any possible incompetent EC grads, so be it.

That's their loss, not mine.

When you say that "people" have a hard time endorsing this type of program, I say that thankfully the copycat states have not adopted the harsh CA tactics of flat out blocking EC grads from endorsing without taking anything else into account.

I say that CA should keep it's citizens safe, but that doesn't mean that you need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Many people move to CA every day, and many of them serve nothing more than to suck it's economy dry and have nothing to offer to the state nor it's citizens except for increased taxes to provide for it's poor and destitute.

But.... that's whole other topic.

[Sheri257]

I believe that all nursing schools graduate both top of the line as well as barely making it through nurses.

EC is hardly unique in graduating those who "slip through the cracks" clinical rotations or not.

If it was only one school that graduated nurses who had a difficult time adjusting to ICU, would you just assume that it was the school and not the new grad him/herself?

I also see your point here. But that's why you need as many safety nets as possible because, inevitably, nothing is perfect and there are going to be holes in those nets. Yes, there are some people in my class who I wouldn't want taking care of me as a nurse. But I am fairly confident that the program would probably throw them out if they did something really crazy.

We had a student who tried to give five cc's of insulin instead of five units who was kicked out. We also had a student turn off a continuous irrigation system with a TURP patient who was also kicked out of the program. If you read the general student forum, you'll see other stories of people doing absolutely crazy things in clinical who got kicked out of traditional programs. Just the other day, an incident was posted where a student decided a patient needed an antibiotic and decided to write the prescription themselves who was kicked out of that program.

While EC may not be unique in graduating "slip through the cracks" students, they are going to graduate more of those people because there's no mechanism in place to try to catch these things ahead of time. The risk is going to be higher. And since there are hospitals that will turn new grads loose with no orientation because they can, this is why EC is more dangerous than traditional programs.

I say that CA should keep it's citizens safe, but that doesn't mean that you need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

This may also be true. But EC also put the baby in the bathwater. I see you responded to a thread about a student who flunked out of nursing school who also thought EC "was the easy way out." We also had people who flunked out my program who said such things. Whether it's true or not, these people haven't helped EC's reputation.

I agree that it probably isn't fair to people like yourself, but since EC really hasn't done much to reassure the board that they're willing to address these issues, I just don't think the board trusts them under any circumstances. That's why I don't think they want to license even experienced RN's in other states because, they would essentially be endorsing a program that they don't trust.

[RN34TX]

This may also be true. But EC also put the baby in the bathwater.

They sure did.

If you are at all interested, I have attempted to contact EC through Alumni Services several times.

I identified myself as an ADN grad of the program who is very concerned about recent board rulings and EC's program not satisfying an increasing number of state boards for RN licensure.

(I'm not exactly concerned about taking travel assignments in Kansas but that isn't the point.)

I have been asking what is being done about it on EC's end and still haven't gotten any type of response from anyone.

I'm aware that there is a lawsuit going on right now between EC and CA, but I doubt that it will end in anything positive on either end.

IMHO, the entire clinical portion just needs to be revamped and they just don't want to face it. They seem to want to take easier ways out like closing off the program to surgical techs and MA's, and CA isn't buying it.

Surely there has got to be a way that satisfies all parties involved without making us the casualties caught in the middle of politics, pride, and ego.