Anybody considered legal action against BONs for non-recognition? - page 4

Doesn't apply to me as I enrolled prior to the CA cutoff date and would sooner die than live in Kansas. Has anybody ever considered filing suit against a BON for not recognizing an EC education?... Read More

  1. by   chris_at_lucas_RN
    Quote from rn34tx
    it just doesn't make sense to me that in ca a federal accrediting body takes a back seat to a state board, but i guess the law has decided that the individual states will decide who is eligible for licensure in their state.
    well, rn34tx, you and i have "met" before (hi! ), and i know that you know where i stand, solidly on the ec side of any line. but i have to take issue with one thing here, and i think it is the crux of why the california bon can do what they want, in spite of the "federal" nln position.

    it is because the nln isn't "federal," rather it is "national." the nln is a body of state boards of nursing who give their approval--official and respected but not legally binding--to schools of nursing. they look like government, but they are not government. a state's bon is a government agency, and its policies and decisions have the force of law. that's how the ca bon can override an nln decision.

    the nln basically has its opinion, but it cannot tell california what to do in its own state about its own nurses because the nln is not a government entity.

    however, i believe the answer will be a nationalized or federalized rn license. we already have the start of that--we all take the same exam. the next layer has begun with the nurse licensure compact. here's a list of states that are members. as more states accept each others' nurses' licenses without question or review, we have, in effect, governmental approval.

    this is analogous to reciprocity, but it's more organized.

    i see california is not a member, but then, neither is new york. right now there are 18 states which are members, with two more who have passed the legislation but not yet enacted it.
  2. by   Sheri257
    Quote from RN34TX
    No one is disputing what their law states, they are disputing it's validity.
    Since the topic of the thread is filing a lawsuit, that usually means you have to deal with the existing statutes whether you like them or not, which is why I mentioned it.

    I realize that you guys will defend EC no matter what. But I do think it's interesting that another state (Kansas) has come to the same conclusion that California did.

    I guess we'll have to see if this becomes a trend with other states, or not.

    Last edit by Sheri257 on Jan 26, '05
  3. by   mobileLPN
    [QUOTE=chris_at_lucas_RN]
    It is because the NLN isn't "federal," rather it is "national." The NLN is a body of state boards of nursing who give their approval--official and respected but not legally binding--to schools of nursing. They look like government, but they are not government. A state's BON is a government agency, and its policies and decisions have the force of law. That's how the CA BON can override an NLN decision.
    [QUOTE=chris_at_lucas_RN]



    Not quite right. I think you're confusing the NLN with the NCSBN. The NLN is indeed a "federally recognized accrediting agency", and it's accreditation does carry with it legal federal recognition. Because of that recogition, It's accreditation policies do indeed carry the force of law.

    http://www.ed.gov/admins/finaid/accr...pg7.html#nurse


    They are right there with north central, middle states, etc. It is interesting to note, that the federal government also recognizes accreditation by the Commission on Collegiate Nursing Education.

    It is a fine distinction, the NLN is not a government agency itself, but federal law recognizes it as an authority and requires it's approval for a program to obtain federal funds. They're kind of like JCAHO in that way.
    Last edit by mobileLPN on Jan 27, '05
  4. by   RN34TX
    Quote from chris_at_lucas_rn
    well, rn34tx, you and i have "met" before (hi! ), and i know that you know where i stand, solidly on the ec side of any line. but i have to take issue with one thing here, and i think it is the crux of why the california bon can do what they want, in spite of the "federal" nln position.

    it is because the nln isn't "federal," rather it is "national." the nln is a body of state boards of nursing who give their approval--official and respected but not legally binding--to schools of nursing. they look like government, but they are not government. a state's bon is a government agency, and its policies and decisions have the force of law. that's how the ca bon can override an nln decision.
    chris i appreciate the correction and still not completely clear about this but i do know that they serve to approve schools of nursing on a national level. i think it's incredible that a state will turn a blind eye to their expert opinion. it's like a hospital not caring about joint commission accreditation.
    Last edit by RN34TX on Jan 27, '05
  5. by   RN34TX
    [QUOTE=mobileLPN][QUOTE=chris_at_lucas_RN]
    It is because the NLN isn't "federal," rather it is "national." The NLN is a body of state boards of nursing who give their approval--official and respected but not legally binding--to schools of nursing. They look like government, but they are not government. A state's BON is a government agency, and its policies and decisions have the force of law. That's how the CA BON can override an NLN decision.
    Quote from chris_at_lucas_RN



    Not quite right. I think you're confusing the NLN with the NCSBN. The NLN is indeed a "federally recognized accrediting agency", and it's accreditation does carry with it legal federal recognition. Because of that recogition, It's accreditation policies do indeed carry the force of law.

    http://www.ed.gov/admins/finaid/accr...pg7.html#nurse


    They are right there with north central, middle states, etc. It is interesting to note, that the federal government also recognizes accreditation by the Commission on Collegiate Nursing Education.

    It is a fine distinction, the NLN is not a government agency itself, but federal law recognizes it as an authority and requires it's approval for a program to obtain federal funds. They're kind of like JCAHO in that way.
    Thanks MobileLPN, that helped clear it up.
  6. by   RN34TX
    Quote from lizz
    Since the topic of the thread is filing a lawsuit, that usually means you have to deal with the existing statutes whether you like them or not, which is why I mentioned it.

    I realize that you guys will defend EC no matter what. But I do think it's interesting that another state (Kansas) has come to the same conclusion that California did.

    I guess we'll have to see if this becomes a trend with other states, or not.

    I was only trying to say that there is no point in continually quoting what the law states. We've all been to the CA and Kansas BON websites and read their decisions about EC.
    As far as your comment about dealing with existing statutes whether I like them or not, it's not a matter of whether or not I like them. You seem firm on quoting the law as if it is set in stone and does not change and obviously it has, or at least in how it was interpreted. Your own home state had to have laws put into play years ago when CA public schools refused to give credit for prior learning, i.e. they forced LVN's to repeat the entire RN program from beginning to end along with everyone else with no advanced placement options. Just because it's law today does not mean that it can't be challenged and changed tomorrow.
    Texas recently reviewed EC as well because of the CA decision but rejected their idea. There may be other states that I do not know about that have done the same thing.
  7. by   Sheri257
    Quote from RN34TX
    I was only trying to say that there is no point in continually quoting what the law states. We've all been to the CA and Kansas BON websites and read their decisions about EC.
    You guys repeat the same statements over and over, mostly about how great EC is. You've said the same things about EC dozens of times, not just to me, but to many others on many different threads.

    I don't say you're repetitive, or suggest that we already know all the things you've repeatedly stated, and that you shouldn't post them, again.

    I'd appreciate the same consideration. If not, to hell with it. I'll say what I want.

    Last edit by Sheri257 on Jan 27, '05
  8. by   RN34TX
    Quote from lizz
    You guys repeat the same statements over and over, mostly about how great EC is. You've said the same things about EC dozens of times, not just to me, but to many others in many different threads.

    I don't say you're repetitive, or suggest that we already know all the things you've repeatedly stated, and that you shouldn't post them, again.

    I'd appreciate the same consideration. If not, to hell with it. I'll say what I want.

    But you say what you want anyway so what difference would it make? You're not an EC grad, student, ex-student, etc. or work with EC grads so why you are so interested in participating in volunteering your wisdom on CA law and EC I have yet to figure out.
    Oh, and did I mention TODAY about how great EC is to everyone??
  9. by   mobileLPN
    Many seem to think this issue about EC. It is not. It is about the excessive power that state BONs have. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard that Deaconness isn't approved by the New York state BON. Deaconness is a NLNAC approved program. I would strongly encourage Deaconness grads and students to fight this through legal action, lobbying, whatever. If it takes 10 years or 20 years to change the system, we must begin working now! It won't be cheap, and it won't be easy, but it must be done.

    It should be a four pronged approach.
    1. Litigation. Lawsuits on every longshot state and federal legal theory imaginable until you find a judge who agrees with you.

    2. Lobbying. Our efforts to win the law changing votes of BON members, legislators and the public must be tireless.

    3. Excellence. We must constantly critically evaluate ourselves as nurses and as alumni to make sure the message we send is correct. It is not enough to be good, or safe, or competent. We, and our schools, must be excellent. We must generate a reputation for our schools of such excellence that BONs would be embarrassed to consider slandering our program. This means setting the bar on clinical practice, research and education. The more grads we have who have MSN or PhD degrees, the better. The more books published by our grads, the better. The more grads we have TEACHING nursing at traditional schools, the better. You get the idea.

    4.Join them. Depending on the state, the governor nominates nurses to the BON. Next time you hear of an opening, call the governors office and suggest an alumni or like minded nurse. Then, publicly lobby for their nomination. We should make it our goal to have grads on the majority of state BONs within 20 years.

    Start Today!



    "Never underestimate the power of a small group of committed people to change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."
    - Margaret Meade
  10. by   traumahawk99
    the problem is that same crazy women who run the traditional nursing schools are also sitting on the state licensing boards. they're control freaks, and excelsior is something they have no control over, so they want to disallow it altogether rather than coming up with a creative method of addressing perceived insufficiencies.

    it's preposterous that someone who has worked for years as an RN in New York should be denied licensure endorsement to California because the state board didn't like their schooling.

    this profession desperately needs national licensure. otherwise, we end up with the sort of authoritarian buffoonery that we have today. and all this in the midst of a nursing shortage.
  11. by   Sheri257
    Quote from traumahawk99
    the problem is that same crazy women who run the traditional nursing schools are also sitting on the state licensing boards. they're control freaks, and excelsior is something they have no control over, so they want to disallow it altogether rather than coming up with a creative method of addressing perceived insufficiencies.

    it's preposterous that someone who has worked for years as an RN in New York should be denied licensure endorsement to California because the state board didn't like their schooling.
    Actually, according to the Californa BORN newsletter, only one out of the nine board members is a nurse educator. Three members aren't nurses and represent the public. Three members are bedside RN's. And there's a nurse administrator and a doctor.

    Just FYI.

  12. by   MidwifeMom
    Hello, I am a Kansas student from Excelsior getting ready to take the CPNE in March. As you all know the KSBN has changed their policy now and will not accept Excelsior students for licensure or endorsement. I was assured by the ksbn before I started the program that Excelsior College would be accepted. I never thought I would have any problems, I mean Excelsior College is accepted by John Hopkins & other prestigous universities, so why would Kansas not accept it? They say it is because of the clinical requirement, but when you are an LPN you have learned the majority of the basic skills of an associate degree nurse. The only thing left is IV's. Why don't they just require you to take an IV therapy course? This would take care of the remaining clinical requirement.

    I am prepared to legally fight this battle with the ksbn and I hope that Excelsior will file suit against ksbn as they are with California. I have enough evidence that some Excelsior students have been allowed to take boards after the decision. I am not a lawyer, but allowing some applicants and not other, just as qualified applicants is discrimination. At the very least I think I can win a discrimination case against them. As for showing harm, they have harmed me financially because I have paid a lot of money for this education program and I will have to pay a lot more to repeat another year. My husband and I also purchased a house in Kansas, and we probably wouldn't have made that choice if I knew I could not work in Kansas. So this now will be another financial burden if I cannot make RN pay.

    As for the previous post, laws are not set in stone and can be challenged and changed. History shows us ignorant laws that were put in to place only to be changed later because strong people challenged them.

    I just sent a letter to ksbn asking if they will accept endorsement because I wanted to clarify the issue. A staff member responded stating that this issue would be addressed on March 16th and she would reply then. I have also sent numerous letters to the governor, ksbn, state reps, & attorney general hoping that someone will see how ignorant this decision is. I have also posted a letter on alittlesarcasm.com asking for the help of other Excelsior college students to write and try to change their mind. Unfortunately this affects us all, because Kansas is trying to make Excelsior degrees worthless.

    Here is the emails of the governor & ksbn members if anyone is willing to write:

    http://www.ksgovernor.org/comment.html (Just copy and paste into the comment form)

    judith.hiner@ksbn.state.ks.us, karen.gilpin@ksbn.state.ks.us, kelly.arpin@ksbn.state.ks.us, ann.chapman@ksbn.state.ks.us, tamara.hutchison@ksbn.state.ks.us, artis.perret@ksbn.state.ks.us, debbie.dale@ksbn.state.ks.us, joan.sheverbush@ksbn.state.ks.us, barbara.stec@ksbn.state.ks.us, sharon.folsom@ksbn.state.ks.us, nancy.mosbaek@ksbn.state.ks.us,wally....s tate.ks.us,
    (These are all the board members for Kansas Board of Nursing, I just sent one email to all of them, copy & paste their names into your email

    Thanks to anyone who is willing to help.

    Jamie
  13. by   MidwifeMom
    Here is a petition to sign for ksbn to change their decision. Pass it on to anyone willing to help.

    Please sign the petition to change Kansas Board of Nursing's decision regarding licensure of Excelsior students.

    http://www.petitionspot.com/petition...geksbndecision

    Thanks
    Jamie

close