Is Health Care a Right?

fiestynurse · Feb 10, 2003

Also, Gromit, regarding your example of a bad outcome in England's system. No system is perfect. England's system is not a single payer system, such as Canada's. It is more Socialistic in nature and has been poorly funded. Tony Blair has been trying to correct that. All systems are affected by politics and none of them are static.

However, every developed country - with the exception of the United States - has made a genuine effort to assure that every person living in that country has health care coverage. And by and large, they have succeeded.

Even in third world countries, health care is recognized as a human right. Florence Nightgale was an advocate for Universal Health Care in India in the 1870s.

the United States stands alone in the world in its failure to recognize health care as a right. Instead we consider it an economic commodity. If you can afford it, you can get it. If not, you're out of luck - despite the myth that "anyone can go to the emergency room for care." The so called "safet net."

Sally_ICURN · Feb 10, 2003

Originally posted by fiestynurse
Even in third world countries, health care is recognized as a human right.

Heck, even Cuba under Fidel Castro guarantees healthcare for all of it's citizens!

TNcanNURSE · Feb 10, 2003

Despite the attempts to justify why healthcare should be a right, I still don't think it is. Despite the guilt trip postings, I still disagree.

If you are this positive that the system is screwed then you should go into politics and try your speeches on the general population. Who knows, maybe you could change the entire American health care system and make it live up to your expectations. Still, even if you could change my mind (which isn't going to happen BTW) it wouldn't do you an ounce of good.

Great! I am so happy (not too much sarcasm intended) that all of these other countries are so much better to their citizens than the US. Why don't you go over there and cash in on the rewards?

It is a free country after all. You have the right to leave.

Next thread: Is a free trip across the Atlantic so I can get this wonderful healthcare a "right"?

I am terribly sorry if this offends certain members. I just can't help it. Reading this thread ticks me off. On with the show.........

Gromit · Feb 10, 2003

Originally posted by OzNurse69
Oh dear, Gromit, you really should check your facts before you get all cranky like that....it's not good for the blood pressure, really.

FACT:The US pays more in dollar amounts than any other country in the world in foreign aid.

FACT:The US pays lessas a percentage of gross national product in foreign aid of ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD!!

BTW, on the illegal immigration thing, I couldn't find any official govt statistics on the money spent on illegal immigrants for health care, cos, guess what, by definition (you know, being ILLEGAL & all) they aren't entitled to any!! I'd be interested to know where you got your "figures" from....about numbers of illegal aliens treated per capita or as a percentage of GNP -- can you direct me to the appropriate survey??

When it comes to human rights etc, in the words of another board member (sorry, would acknowledge you, but I can't remember who it was!!)....

....do NOT mess with me, you WILL NOT win.....:kiss

Gross amounts. More money is more money, regardless of its percentages. I'm not in competition, I'm just saying that we are talking a heck of a LOT of money!

Illegals. They aren't entitled to any. YEAH, RIGHT!. Technically, you are correct. But talk to ANY healthcare provider in Florida about that, or Texas, or any 'border' state where illegals tend to cross with apparent ease. The immigrant laws matter little at the hospital. You show me when someone was turned away from a hospital just because they had no green card ? Considder that the hospitals (and for that matter the field units I worked on) service (primarily -except my latest facility, which is private) primarily the agricultural community which uses (yes! you guessed it!) a great number of illegals to pick, sort and at times move its produce. I know it first hand, not by some pencilneck behind a desk telling me the "facts".

Just because I dont find and quote some stats somewhere regarding illegals does not mean that it doesn't happen. I see it here, I saw it while on the ambulance in the field. I can't speak for states where the population is American, but I can sure speak about my own state.

Sorry, but I sincerely doubt you hold the final word on 'Human Rights'. Besides, a better quote would be:

"Statistics prove whatever the statistician wants them to".

and as R. Limbaugh used to say: "It all depends on how the question was asked.".

However, I'll doff my cap and go along with the liberal crowd if you can pull it off WITHOUT asking to dip into my pockets for yet MORE money. I have yet to see the government turn ANYTHING into something that was more efficient in time, or cost effectiveness.

I used to work for the government as well. County level, true, but inefficient beaurocracy nonetheless.

Gromit · Feb 10, 2003

Originally posted by fiestynurse
Also, Gromit, regarding your example of a bad outcome in England's system. No system is perfect. England's system is not a single payer system, such as Canada's. It is more Socialistic in nature and has been poorly funded. Tony Blair has been trying to correct that. All systems are affected by politics and none of them are static.
As I said, I'll grant the exception, but the waiting lists are real enough
However, every developed country - with the exception of the United States - has made a genuine effort to assure that every person living in that country has health care coverage. And by and large, they have succeeded.

Even in third world countries, health care is recognized as a human right. Florence Nightgale was an advocate for Universal Health Care in India in the 1870s.
Yeah, talk to Cuba, or some of the wondercare available in the sandy dunes of Camel Country
the United States stands alone in the world in its failure to recognize health care as a right. Instead we consider it an economic commodity. If you can afford it, you can get it. If not, you're out of luck - despite the myth that "anyone can go to the emergency room for care." The so called "safet net."
Is it a failure? Or is it a failure to capitulate to socialistic ideas? The jury is still out on that. What kind of RIGHT is it that I must pay for it to be GIVEN to someone else?
As for the MYTH you speak of, look in ANY emergency room. If they have a life-threatening illness, they CANNOT be turned away. Even a facility that cannot handle the type of care, MUST arrange and transport them to a facility that can. If this isn't done, any lawyer would LOVE to jump on the wagon and reap the benefits.
Call a myth a myth. But thats not one.
They can't get treated for sniffles. But then sniffles are not the life-threatening emergency that some think it is. If they have chest pains, they will be seen.

maureeno · Feb 10, 2003

Whew! this thread goes round like a carousel...now we are back on what a wise poster a while back described as...away from 'is health care a right?' and into 'who has a right to healthcare?'

meanwhile, since most immigrants come into the US to work, a payroll tax for mandatory health insurance would include them as well.

Stargazer · Feb 10, 2003

Now we're reduced to arguing, "America--love it or leave it" and "You can't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up"?

Oy. :rolleyes:

fiestynurse · Feb 10, 2003

We must start thinking about ourselves as a single group of 280 million Americans who are all part of the same health care system.

If even a few million Americans are left hanging in limbo, our nation will not regain its dignity.

Gromit · Feb 10, 2003

Originally posted by maureeno
meanwhile, since most immigrants come into the US to work, a payroll tax for mandatory health insurance would include them as well.

While that sounds logical, sadly, it is NOT the case. Illegals do NOT pay taxes, the payroll is not a legal one. How can you legally do an illegal thing? The illegals have no social security number, and the farmers do creative book keeping. They get paid in cash, and typically do not have bank accounts or any other legal way to track them.

I live in berry-city USA. Plant City is rife with illegals picking strawberrys, citrus, and just about any other crop. Typically they live in substandard housing, and follow the crops. That is, when the crops are worked, they move or migrate to the next state or area, and work there. they do NOT pay taxes. But when they are hurt, I've been working in ERs where the farmer literally just drops them off, and leaves.

So your payroll tax for mandatory health insurance will not harness them. We will just foot that bill. Since it will be socialized healthcare (call it by what it is), we will pay for far more than the occasional broken bone or deep soft-tissue wound. We will pay for whatever ails 'em. Its human nature to take what is 'free'. Even as illegals, I would never begrudge them real life-threatening healthcare, but illegal is supposed to be just that. Usually a blind-eye is turned to this, because there aren't enough resources to deport them (especially when they just flock right back over). Sure, from time to time, NIS will make a round-up, but its just a token one.

OzNurse69 · Feb 10, 2003

Originally posted by Gromit
Is it a failure? Or is it a failure to capitulate to socialistic ideas? The jury is still out on that. What kind of RIGHT is it that I must pay for it to be GIVEN to someone else?
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Since when is providing basic health care to every member of the populace, without fear, favour or discrimination, "capitulating to socialist ideas"??

Sorry, going to have to stop now, before I say something I may regret. I just defy anyone to demonstrate to me that the US has the best and most equitable health system in the world -- even if if costs you, Gromit, as a taxpayer, twice as much as it would if you were living in nearly any other country in the world.

I'll stick with my cheap & cheerful, thanks very much. It may not be perfect, but it's a damn sight better than what the US has......:)

JMP · Feb 10, 2003

I have just finished working 36 hours in the last 3 days. Reading over the recent posts I was disheartened to see that when I left the conversation was reasonalble and moving forward and now it seems to be stuck.

I appreciated seeing the numbers and percentages, but I knew the facts anyways........ Gromit.......pulling out all of these flag waving, do or die arguments is plain silly. Has nothing to do with subject at hand.

Gromit, listen, take the time to read. Listen. I live in a country where universal health care works. It works for everybody all of the time.

semstr · Feb 10, 2003

Gromit, I too live in a country, as in most European countries by the way, where "it" works. Oh and by the way, we are no socialists. LOL