MD, DO, NP, DC, OD -- Who deserves the title Physician?

Specialties NP

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our professional scope of practice asserts that our role is to assess, diagnose, and treat in health and illness.

from assessing, diagnosing, treating - diabetes, thrombosis, heart disease, infection, emphysema, hep c, hiv, etc, to rendering prenatal care, and preventative care - we are primary care providers. we make life and death decisions each day with our patients in managing disease - thrombosis management and prevention; hep c management; hiv management, heart disease and cva management; women's health - yet we are given less legitimacy in the social security act and cms section 410.20 than a chiropractor or optometrist.

i have nothing against chiropractic physicians mind you, but take a look at chiropractic.

cannot prescribe - not even an aspirin

procedures? - scant more than "moist heat";

assessment - can't even look into your ear according to their scope of practice

educational requirements? - a bachelors degree?, nope - about a year and a half of college study (90 credits), a 2.5 gpa, and 3 yrs of study at a chiropractic school.

how do chiropractors see themselves? go to http://schools.naturalhealers.com/lifewest/

chiropractic is a total-body healthcare system, and not a method of pain management. as a gatekeeper for direct access to the health delivery system, the responsibilities of the doctor of chiropractic as a primary care clinician include wellness promotion, health assessment, diagnosis, and the chiropractic management of the patient's health care needs. when indicated, the doctor of chiropractic may also co-manage, consult with, or refer to other health care providers

optometry - about the same. 65 college credit hours (a year and change), 2.5 gpa, a 4 yr program. -- then - slit lamp, snellen, better or worse, eyeglasses or contacts? see you in two years.

that's all fine. but, here's the rub. the chiropractor and optometrist - according to section 1861®(1) of the ssa,and cms sec. 410.20 -- are designated a physician with all of the privileges and honors of that professional designation.

the apn? nope. even though our scope of practice is much, much broader; our responsibility and liability - far greater. yet we are still treated as hand-maids, and put in our place as second class providers - the extenders, the mid-levels. none of us treat mid-way; perform half of a procedure; help the patient heal only half the way through a disease.

does any other primary care provider treat heart disease more or differently than you as a provider treat heart disease? does the physician carry more responsibility or liability? no. a pcp is a pcp. and god bless all of us, md, do, apn.

there is no comparison.the nurse practitioner's contribution to the health of our nation is every bit as important as the md, or do, and far above that of the dc or od. in the clinic we shoulder the responsibilities and liabilities - every one of our actions or inactions as a provider -- every moment we spend with a patient is legally ours to bear alone....

yet how many times have you been told - sorry, we need a physicians signature on that... you can't order that - it has to be ordered by a physician. we can't send that to you - we have to send it to the physician. sorry, we only credential physicians.

am i the only apn that feels a little bewildered and disgusted by this?

i have no innate yearning or desire to be called a physician mind you, its not an ego thing. but what i do have is a desire for, is to be respected for my role as a primary care provider by hospitals, insurers, labs, etc, so that i can do my job.

why i'm writing this.

as health care and our roles evolve, i believe that it is our responsibility to lobby for the advancement of our professional role, and with that updates to the ssa and cms sec. 410.20, two of the main documents that define the apn to other professionals. this is critical so that other professionals will not be confused about our role, our education, our abilities, and our responsibilities to our patients.

we regularly talk about fighting battles in my home state of tennessee, but are we only treating the symptoms of our professional legislative, political, and administrative woes? - shouldn't we also be addressing the root problems from which most of these arise - such as our absence from ssa 1861®(1)and cms sec. 410.20.

it may be time for each individual apn to write, call, or otherwise encourage other apn's as well as our advocates at ana, and our legislators to argue in favor of apn pcp's inclusion in cms sec. 410.20 and ssa 1861®(1).

because as the role of the nurse practitioner continues to evolve in response to changing societal and health care needs, so should the ssa and other government acts that define us to the nation.

social security act 1861

http://www.ssa.gov/op_home/ssact/title18/1861.htm

so. if you agree, take a moment and write someone. don't sit back and do nothing. :rotfl:change happens because of you. :) write a short note to your local chapter of ana, the national ana, george bush, your senators and your representatives and voice your desire for an updated cms sec. 410.20 and ssa 1861®(1) to help apn's across the nation do their job. thanks gang. http://www.firstgov.gov/contact/elected.shtml

respectfully,

r. martin

family nurse practitioner, chief manager and primary care provider

campbell station primary care associates

11541 kingston pike, ste 101

knoxville, tn 37922

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i am a dc and also considered a physician. i own several medical offices and prefer to have nps as i believe they are absolutely competent, hard working, and deserve way more credit than they are given. i also disagree with any assertion that a chiro should not be considered a physician only because of a limited scope which has been chosen by our profession. it must be understood (and i do disagree with most of my colleagues on this) that chiropractors have chosen to be drugless doctors but this does not dimish our ability for diagnosis, only treatment.

why am i even responding to this?

ok... how many patients have you ever admitted... oh that's right none.

how do you treat pneumonia? you can't copd? cant asthma? same story (and there are rcts that prove this one)

cellulitis? mi? cardiomyopathy? effusions? meningitis? embolic stroke? gastritis? gi bleed? cancer of any type? hypertension? pneumothorax? critical hypotension? you can't do any of it. can you read an ekg? no. can you tap a pleural effusion? no. do you know how to really work up chest pain? no. can you do a pelvic exam? no.

you are a chiropractor. you are not a physician. and you would never tell a real physician that you were also a physician because when they found out you were a chiropractor they would laugh in your face.

i've personally caught hundreds of misdiagnosed conditions by mds only to have my correct diagnosis confirmed by specialists. i'm not tooting horns or sticking out my chest, i'm just stating the fact that dcs do have the education; we draw blood, interpret labs, perform physical exams and urinalysis and our boards include mostly non-chiropractic medical based diagnosis questions.

first of all, i doubt it. i'm guessing at most a handful. second, no you don't have the education. how many rotations did you do in the hospital or out patient actually practicing medicine? none. you can read books all you want but until you put that knowledge to practice, you can't actually use it. that's why real physicians have clinical rotations and clinical residencies.

why did you bump a 3 year old thread.

Specializes in Trauma, Emergency, Urgent Care.

but for conservative care on neuromusculoskeletal conditions, there is no comparison and it doesn't matter how much you might retort.

I have yet to me a chiro patient who was "cured" and did not require more (a lifetime usually) of treatments. There are a couple of chiropractors in my area that haunt the local FM station on Sunday nights. One has written a popular book. To listen to these guys...anything from sinusitus to pulmonary embolism could be managed with vitamins, good sleep habits and a series of subluxations. For the love....

Oh, and, in my opinion, the only physicians are MD/DO.

Chiros: are quacks. They believe every illness has to do with obscure spinal problems that only they can see.....NOT PHYSICIANS (IN fact in my state it is against the law for them to call themselves such).

Opt: NOT PHYSICIANS. They are essentially an Ophthalmo mid level provider.

NPs/DNP: NOT PHYSICIANS. Wonderful providers within the right setting, but you vastly lack the knowledge base of a MD/DO. Not because you not as intelligent, but because your education has been fundamentally different from a physician's from the first day you steped foot into a college.

MD's/DO's : Physicans. Experts in the subject of physiology.

Wowza.

It is obvious that you are informed with only half the story. If you are truly interested in the truth, I ask you to read my response, take a breath and think about it, not just fire off an angry response.

How many patients have I admitted: NONE, and if you read my original post you will see that I never stated that I had, that is not my job. How many brain surgeries have you performed, NASA launches? It doesn't mean that you’re not competent at what you do, it's just not in your job description.

Yes, I can read an EKG, can you read X-rays/MRI? Yes I can perform a pelvic exam (depends on state) but I certainly would never because I leave that to those who are experts in the area. I also draw and interpret labs, perform examinations (real honest to goodness physical exams with a stethoscope and everything…..sarcasm intended) and refer out when appropriate (hmmm doesn’t that sound like your garden variety GP).

Would I tell an MD that I am a physician, NO because in order for that to come up in conversation it would have to be in an argumentative setting; I work hand in hand with the MD not in an adversarial way. Many MD's refer their patients to my office. I have several surgeons, GPs, specialists, dentists and over 30 nurses as my patients. So unlike you who obviously believes that there is some great war, we work together, everyone knows their role, everyone respects each other’s opinion.

I am an honest person and never attacked in my original post, nor did I downgrade anyone; in fact, I believe that I praised nurses. This makes me ponder your hostility. I also must protest that you called me a liar when you’ve never met me; when I say hundreds, I mean hundreds.

I will agree that many chiropractors, although trained, do not practice as physicians because they do have tunnel vision and only see what they want to see without looking at the big picture. I however am not one of them and do assess all aspects of my patients as it pertains to their history, symptomology, and objective finding (orthopedic and neurological exams); I know many MDs with tunnel vision myself and I’m certain if you are honest, you do too.

Why did I bump a 3 year old thread? I was doing some research for one of my Nurse Practitioners and was looking for a nursing perspective…does that sound like someone who is one sided to you.

Look, I’m not going to go back and forth with you as obviously you have your mind set, but I will tell you that I own several very reputable medical facilities and I have an objective vantage from both sides. It’s not about drawing a line in the sand with me, it’s about the truth. My job is to be the front line, if it’s a musculoskeletal condition, I’ll treat it, if it’s a condition that warrants referral, I refer. The only difference is the scope of our modalities and each has his/her place. I’ve unfortunately found cancer on several patients when their medical doctors had not bothered to investigate radiologically and had been treated with NSAIDS for months and in one case almost a year; I can’t believe that whatever your prejudices may be that your don’t believe that is a medical diagnosis and not simply a chiropractic one.

I wish you luck

Browndog,

I'm sorry that you've never met a chiro that has "cured" anyone. If I ask you a question, will you stop, think and answer honestly. How many chronic headache patients have medical doctors cured? Or do they treat for a lifetime as you said about chiropractors (just with a different modality). They treat with drug therapy and usually this is way more frequent (several times a day) than a chiro would treat with manipulation therapy. How many blood pressure patients are truly cured of their high blood pressure by the medical profession (remember, I own medical clinics and see the scripts going out all day long) None, they treat for a lifetime with a different modality.

I think if you really looked in the average personals medicine chest, you would agree that there’s a lot more medical treatment going on per capita than chiropractic care (If I could put an adjustment in a pill I would). It is completely unfair to say that every morning when grandma takes her pills that she’ not being treated….by definition she absolutely is. Taking a pill is certainly more convenient that going into an office, but no less of a treatment. That being said if you’re being treated by a chiropractor for 30 visits in 3 months and your migraines are almost completely gone, the chiro treated you 30 times and got the desired result. If you are under medical care for the same diagnosis and taking several pills, several times a day indefinitely, you are being treated thousands of times for the same condition with no end in site…..please don’t insinuate that chiros over treat without considering the other side.

As for those on your radio show, I have not heard them so I cannot comment. I do believe that the medical profession has a tendency to over prescribe, but I also agree with you that some of those chiros go off the deep end and embarrass the rest of us.

As I responded to wowza, I’m not looking for a fight. I have a direct interest in both sides, I just ask that other who do not have the privilege of seeing both views investigate.

Regarding the title physician, again, I'm not hung up on it so I don't care....I care about helping people.

Yours in health

How can you, as a group of healthcare providers, be taken seriously with proposals such as this one when you use tactics such as BASHING other healthcare fields. Is this a complete joke? Your description of what optometrists do is absolutely disgusting and pedantic. Perhaps that's why no one wants to take you guys seriously.

What will the title of physician get you? More money that you probably think you deserve? No. More rights that you think you deserve? No. Will it actually get you more respect? Perhaps, but only because people will confuse you with actual physicians. This desire is nothing more than a group of mid-level providers trying to stroke their own ego.

Specializes in Family Practice; Emergency Medicine.
2.5 gpa, 65 college credit hours? Those are the bare minimum requirements any prospective optometry student need to even be considered for admission. The average gpa to get into optometry school is a 3.3 (same gpa to get into DO school) with a 330 out of 400 on their entrance exam (almost the same test pre-dental students take). Nearly 90% of all optometry students have a 4 year degree or higher. You are looking at 8 years of college to become an optometrist.

I don't think you should downplay any profession's educational requirements. The title physician is granted so managed care plans would reimburse optometrists for their services. To me...the only real physicians are MD/DO/DPM.

I believe I am pretty much in agreement with you....wow....there are some well-informed folks on here.....yeah...no one should be downplaying another profession......that doesn't help.....I think it is truly a semantic debate here.......who should be called physicians?? well, if we're arguing for rights as advanced practice nurses why would we WANT to be called a physician....we have to be careful what we are asking for here....it is becoming a slippery slope.....we may lose the support of those who are well established and on our sides....we are NOT physicians......let the non allopathic and osteopathic practitioners of optometry and chiropractic have the title I suppose....traditionally they always have.....fighting for the same or similar RIGHTS is a different story....

I've been giving it alot of thought and really trying to see the big picture......people are getting so hung up on titles and credentials and wording and program curricula......

I think the definition on this site sums it up well........ A Nurse Practitioner (NP) is a registered nurse with advanced academic and clinical experience in diagnosing and managing most common acute and chronic illnesses either independently or in collaboration with a physician.

we just want to do what we are doing and be who we are and be rightfully recognized and legitimized for it, no???

no we don't have the same training as physicians.....could we safely take on the primary care needs of the population.......sure.....I think we could.....but.....aren't we pretty much doing that now.....as it is....???? won't we still call on our physician and NP and PA colleagues for insight and expertise and experience when ours falls short.....???? yes...I think we will.......

I guess I kind of enjoy basically being independent and still legal having an attachment to a physician who in many cases knows more than I do......

I've heard some folks make a few decent arguments as to why dissolve collaborative practice agreements is a good and/or founded thing......such as: a rightful move based on our experience and quality and scope of practice; would free up care for those who have independent clinics should something happen to their physician supervisor (death or move or stop practicing)

can anyone else offer other reasons for why this move is so necessary or deserved....???? thanks........

Wowza.

It is obvious that you are informed with only half the story. If you are truly interested in the truth, I ask you to read my response, take a breath and think about it, not just fire off an angry response.

How many patients have I admitted: NONE, and if you read my original post you will see that I never stated that I had, that is not my job. How many brain surgeries have you performed, NASA launches? It doesn't mean that you're not competent at what you do, it's just not in your job description.

The destinction here is that I don't claim to be a neurosurgeon or an astrophysicist. You claim to be a physician.

Yes, I can read an EKG, can you read X-rays/MRI? Yes I can perform a pelvic exam (depends on state) but I certainly would never because I leave that to those who are experts in the area. I also draw and interpret labs, perform examinations (real honest to goodness physical exams with a stethoscope and everything.....sarcasm intended) and refer out when appropriate (hmmm doesn't that sound like your garden variety GP).

When have you ever had to interpret an EKG? You can read an EKG like I can read french. I can probably pick out a few things but to say I can read french is a gross overstatement.

And no it doesn't sound like your garden variety GP because your garden variety GP has acumen in these areas because he/she has been adequately trained in it for a minimum of 8 years. You were trained in chiropractics for 4 years. You have not done medical rotations, you have not done residency and your 4 years of chiropractic school were not focused on the same things as a medical doctors was. Stop your BS. Please.

Would I tell an MD that I am a physician, NO because in order for that to come up in conversation it would have to be in an argumentative setting; I work hand in hand with the MD not in an adversarial way. Many MD's refer their patients to my office. I have several surgeons, GPs, specialists, dentists and over 30 nurses as my patients. So unlike you who obviously believes that there is some great war, we work together, everyone knows their role, everyone respects each other's opinion.

You did. In your last post. I am an MD (I also go to a chiropractor from time to time). I have respect for chiropractors and they make my back feel better. That said, I have respect only for those chiropractors that know their limitations and don't act like they can read EKGs or are PCPs. They just don't have the training. Physicians refer their patients because you have expertise in Chiropractics. You are not a GP. You are a chiropractor. Sure you work with MDs but that doesn't make you a physician.

I am an honest person and never attacked in my original post, nor did I downgrade anyone; in fact, I believe that I praised nurses. This makes me ponder your hostility. I also must protest that you called me a liar when you've never met me; when I say hundreds, I mean hundreds.

No, you upgraded yourself well above your paygrade. That is much, much worse and that kind of hubris is how people get hurt.

Specializes in Consultation Liaison Psychiatry.

2015 is the year for DNP for entry into practice, not 2010

2015 is the year for DNP for entry into practice, not 2010

That is still a proposal, not a requirement. The only advanced practice group that has actually embraced the mandatory-DNP idea is the CRNAs, and I believe their target date is 2025 (and it remains to be seen whether that will actually happen).

The DNP needs to develop it's own version of the COMLEX, i.e. Steps 1-3, tweaked to reflect "nursing theory/roles" type stuff (which will make many groan, but putting in this stuff is the only way to get academia to support it).

Specializes in Consultation Liaison Psychiatry.
The DNP needs to develop it's own version of the COMLEX, i.e. Steps 1-3, tweaked to reflect "nursing theory/roles" type stuff (which will make many groan, but putting in this stuff is the only way to get academia to support it).

Are we sure that we all want it to be supported?

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