MD, DO, NP, DC, OD -- Who deserves the title PCP?

Specialties NP

Published

our professional scope of practice asserts that our role is to assess, diagnose, and treat in health and illness - head to toe, physical and behavioral.

from assessing, diagnosing, treating - diabetes, thrombosis, heart disease, infection, emphysema, hep c, hiv, etc, to rendering prenatal care, and preventative care - we are primary care providers. we make life and death decisions each day with our patients in managing disease - thrombosis management and prevention; hep c management; hiv management, heart disease and cva management; women's health - yet we are given less legitimacy in the social security act and cms section 410.20 than a chiropractor or optometrist.

i have nothing against chiropractic physicians mind you, but take a look at chiropractic.

cannot prescribe - not even an aspirin

procedures? - scant more than "moist heat";

assessment - can't even look into your ear according to their scope of practice

educational requirements? - a bachelors degree?, nope - about a year and a half of college study (90 credits), a 2.5 gpa, and 3 yrs of study at a chiropractic school.

how do chiropractors see themselves? go to http://schools.naturalhealers.com/lifewest/

chiropractic is a total-body healthcare system, and not a method of pain management. as a gatekeeper for direct access to the health delivery system, the responsibilities of the doctor of chiropractic as a primary care clinician include wellness promotion, health assessment, diagnosis, and the chiropractic management of the patient's health care needs. when indicated, the doctor of chiropractic may also co-manage, consult with, or refer to other health care providers

optometry - about the same. 65 college credit hours (a year and change), 2.5 gpa, a 4 yr program. -- then - slit lamp, snellen, better or worse, eyeglasses or contacts? see you in two years.

that's all fine. but, here's the rub. the chiropractor and optometrist - according to section 1861®(1) of the ssa,and cms sec. 410.20 -- are designated a physician with all of the privileges and honors of that professional designation.

the apn? nope. even though our scope of practice is much, much broader; our responsibility and liability - far greater. yet we are still treated as hand-maids, and put in our place as second class providers - the extenders, the mid-levels. none of us treat mid-way; perform half of a procedure; help the patient heal only half the way through a disease.

does any other primary care provider treat heart disease more or differently than you as a provider treat heart disease? does the physician carry more responsibility or liability? no. a pcp is a pcp. and god bless all of us, md, do, apn.

there is no comparison.the nurse practitioner's contribution to the health of our nation is every bit as important as the md, or do, and far above that of the dc or od. in the clinic we shoulder the responsibilities and liabilities - every one of our actions or inactions as a provider -- every moment we spend with a patient is legally ours to bear alone....

yet how many times have you been told - sorry, we need a physicians signature on that... you can't order that - it has to be ordered by a physician. we can't send that to you - we have to send it to the physician. sorry, we only credential physicians.

am i the only apn that feels a little bewildered and disgusted by this?

i have no innate yearning or desire to be called a physician mind you, its not an ego thing. but what i do have is a desire for, is to be respected for my role as a primary care provider by hospitals, insurers, labs, etc, so that i can do my job.

why i'm writing this.

as health care and our roles evolve, i believe that it is our responsibility to lobby for the advancement of our professional role, and with that updates to the ssa and cms sec. 410.20, two of the main documents that define the apn to other professionals. this is critical so that other professionals will not be confused about our role, our education, our abilities, and our responsibilities to our patients.

we regularly talk about fighting battles in my home state of tennessee, but are we only treating the symptoms of our professional legislative, political, and administrative woes? - shouldn't we also be addressing the root problems from which most of these arise - such as our absence from ssa 1861®(1)and cms sec. 410.20.

it may be time for each individual apn to write, call, or otherwise encourage other apn's as well as our advocates at ana, and our legislators to argue in favor of apn pcp's inclusion in cms sec. 410.20 and ssa 1861®(1).

because as the role of the nurse practitioner continues to evolve in response to changing societal and health care needs, so should the ssa and other government acts that define us to the nation.

social security act 1861

http://www.ssa.gov/op_home/ssact/title18/1861.htm

so. if you agree, take a moment and write someone. don't sit back and do nothing. :rotfl:change happens because of you. :) write a short note to your local chapter of ana, the national ana, george bush, your senators and your representatives and voice your desire for an updated cms sec. 410.20 and ssa 1861®(1) to help apn's across the nation do their job. thanks gang. http://www.firstgov.gov/contact/elected.shtml

respectfully,

r. martin

family nurse practitioner, chief manager and primary care provider

campbell station primary care associates

11541 kingston pike, ste 101

knoxville, tn 37922

A while back in this thread there was discussion about how the nursing model of care differs (or doesn't depending upon one's view). I recently came across an article that I had copied. I don't have the full article or the author's name, but it came from the journal: Primary Health Care Research and Development 2004: 5: 351-358 and is titled: Nurses' role in advancing primary health care

"For nurses, the client is always viewed within the context of family (e.g., culture, celiefs and values) and environment (e.g., housing employment, social support). Since nursing has biological, psychological and social health as an end in view, the outcomes of nursing practice reflect practitioners' contributions to promoting individual and family development during periods of transition or critis(nurtrative function). There should also be evidence that nursing has influenced changes in health state or behaviour (generative function), in a manner that safeguards respect for individuals and families, and promotes self-reliance (protective function). Nursing assessment is inherently focused on understanding the relationship between determinants of health and actual health status and nursing intervention is directed at helping individuals, families or communities develop strategies to achieve imporved health and well-being, in the spirit of self-reliance."

Ann

Specializes in Obstetrics, M/S, Psych.
All right, I'll jump in here. I am an RN with ten years of expereince. My goal is to earn my MSN and FNP but it is slow going. I have been in home health for years and have been around many MD's, PAs and nurse practitioners. Here is my take. The nursing model of care promotes a more holistic model. There may not be much of a difference with the way the pt with CP is treated. However, where ongoing primary care is concerned- this is where I think the difference is seen. Because the nursing model of care promotes holistic thinking the np is going to be more likely to ask a broad range of questions related to the entire patient and not just the presenting problem. Will be more likely to counsel as far as nutrition, etc. If a patient with a wound on their foot comes into the office, I would think that the np would be more likely to look and teach about nutritional status as well as basic wound care. The np would be more likely to assess things like: what type of shoes is the patient wearing that may be counterproductive to the wound. This is why np's are such a good fit with primary care.

I agree that NP's view the patient more holistically than do MD's. I thought it interesting that this definition of a DO, very much reflects the way NP's practice: "They view the patient as a 'total person" and focus on preventative care. They view the whole body rather than treat specific symptoms or illness." Working with Osteopaths for many years and seeing the difference between the way they practice compared to MD's, I find it rather amusing that in definition they more closely resemble APN's, despite their similar education to MD's. Makes me realize it really is more about politics than anything!

So I have been reading all this and I gotta say that this is crazy. Yeah, I am in Nursing school because I don't want to go to med school because of time restraints and such (by the way, which doesn't make me a bad person), but I will eventuall be a APN too. So here's what I think. After a certain period of time in a specialized practioner setting, not schooling, a APN should have the priveledges of a PA, not an MD! The PA is the closest,more respected with priveldges job in our discussion so far. By the time a FNP has got the same number of years under her or his belt as a PA, MD or Hell, even an Pharm D has to do their rotations and residency, then she or he should get the prescribing role and such- yeah a new group of letters will have to go at the end of the name for this to happen, but so what- a pin only costs a few bucks. This is my opinion, because you damn well, that we are equivalent in practice scope by that time. So I guess I partially agree with the whole "if you want to be a doctor , go to med school thing." If we all try to play doctor, that just gives them even more reason to thrust all that extra work upon us that they already do anyway. We just are legally protected right now to say "oh, no, that's your job" (or that is at least for the ones of us who ain't afraid to say so). The question here is does that APN want the title to look good in the work she does, or want that change so that they can do their job to their best ability by having more priveldges like prescribing without practing under a MD. But, let's be realistic, it's not gonna change. There is too much at stake for both boards, and advancement for nurses isn't the problem here. It seems to me that it is more about being called a doctor for the purpose of glory...I mean, as a NP you get to play doctor without as much legal problems, and you still get to have a family. Most NP's I know do their jobs as they see fit and prove themselves to their supervising MD enough, that the MD recognizes them as an equal who just got on the job training and not as much class time. God, ya'll are making way to much out of this.

So I have been reading all this and I gotta say that this is crazy. Yeah, I am in Nursing school because I don't want to go to med school because of time restraints and such (by the way, which doesn't make me a bad person), but I will eventuall be a APN too. So here's what I think. After a certain period of time in a specialized practioner setting, not schooling, a APN should have the priveledges of a PA, not an MD! The PA is the closest,more respected with priveldges job in our discussion so far. By the time a FNP has got the same number of years under her or his belt as a PA, MD or Hell, even an Pharm D has to do their rotations and residency, then she or he should get the prescribing role and such- yeah a new group of letters will have to go at the end of the name for this to happen, but so what- a pin only costs a few bucks. This is my opinion, because you damn well, that we are equivalent in practice scope by that time. So I guess I partially agree with the whole "if you want to be a doctor , go to med school thing." If we all try to play doctor, that just gives them even more reason to thrust all that extra work upon us that they already do anyway. We just are legally protected right now to say "oh, no, that's your job" (or that is at least for the ones of us who ain't afraid to say so). The question here is does that APN want the title to look good in the work she does, or want that change so that they can do their job to their best ability by having more priveldges like prescribing without practing under a MD. But, let's be realistic, it's not gonna change. There is too much at stake for both boards, and advancement for nurses isn't the problem here. It seems to me that it is more about being called a doctor for the purpose of glory...I mean, as a NP you get to play doctor without as much legal problems, and you still get to have a family. Most NP's I know do their jobs as they see fit and prove themselves to their supervising MD enough, that the MD recognizes them as an equal who just got on the job training and not as much class time. God, ya'll are making way to much out of this.

oh yeah and I don't know about where you are from, but a NP definitely gets way more credit for smarts than a DO does around here! That should say something for how it works in the professions.

God, ya'll are making way to much out of this.

Don't worry about all the computer crap. To make these forums fun you have to realize that everyone who posts regularly and is serious instead of using it for fun is only taking advantage of the depersonalization and perceived anomynity of it, so they're saying on here what they really wouldn't say in real life. Most are just spouting off to make themselves feel better for whatever they are. Just find it amuzing as I do and go about your day.

If you get into this stuff seriously, it's only gonna piss you off because that's mostly what people who come to these things try to do. It could be a great source of networking and info, but for the most part, they're battlefields for pissing matches. Have fun!!!

Specializes in Obstetrics, M/S, Psych.
oh yeah and I don't know about where you are from, but a NP definitely gets way more credit for smarts than a DO does around here! That should say something for how it works in the professions.

Whaaaa? :confused:

Specializes in Neuroscience ICU, Orthopedics.
i just fully read your post and i have to say you're way out of line. if you want all of the privileges of a dr., become one. i do understand your desire to be respected for being a competent professional but you chose the role you decided to lead and that's just the way things are. you're not a dr., and you shouldn't have the full privileges of one. no offense to the nurse practitioner profession but to give a nurse practitioner the same privileges as a pediatric neurosurgeon is simply absurd. that's basically what you're asking for. i understand that you want to have more responsibility as a primary care provider but the privileges that you're asking for extend much farther than those of your current profession. you're asking to be put on the same playing field as a cardiologist, internist, pediatric oncologist, cardiothoracic surgeon and all of the other medical specialist that perform the duties that you are requesting. it's simply out of the question.

you need to read carefully what the poster is stating. the poster is specifically noting the similarities in scope of practice between pcp's and np's, not surgeons and sub specialists. i wholeheartedly agree with the poster's sentiments.

Don't worry about all the computer crap. To make these forums fun you have to realize that everyone who posts regularly and is serious instead of using it for fun is only taking advantage of the depersonalization and perceived anomynity of it, so they're saying on here what they really wouldn't say in real life. Most are just spouting off to make themselves feel better for whatever they are. Just find it amuzing as I do and go about your day.

If you get into this stuff seriously, it's only gonna piss you off because that's mostly what people who come to these things try to do. It could be a great source of networking and info, but for the most part, they're battlefields for pissing matches. Have fun!!!

Wow that's terrific early morning spelling... :chuckle

Specializes in Neuroscience ICU, Orthopedics.

What is it to practice within the Nursing/Medicine/PA Model? If anyone can elaborate in detail, as one previous poster had suggested, it would be quite welcomed.

While I assume that your comments truly are not meant to propegate the "nurses above all others mentality", this has indeed become the result of your post. I am a new member, and frankly, shocked by the ego that pervades some of these forums. Any shrink will tell you that those who brag the most are those who have the most insecurity issues. Those who are secure in their profession and abilities don't seek out the (perceived) faults in others. You have much free time to look up inaccurate information regarding other professions.

You state that chiropractors don't have bachelor's degrees? They absolutely DO have a bachelors, and then at least four & FIVE years of graduate study before their degree is conferred. Note, I am not a chiropractor.

You also state that there is little difference between NPs and MDs/DOs. Can you be serious? The fact that they are physicians and NPs are not should be enough to clarify this misstatement. Why try to inflate our own egos with names and titles and labels? If we are insecure, we need to go to medical school and EARN the title that physicians have spent 12 + years (and hundreds of thousands of dollars) of their lives to achieve. Until we have met that challenge ourselves, we have limited room to point fingers. Even the newbie intern is still a DOC. Yes, they may have a long road to travel to reach true competency, but how proficent were you as a student nurse? Did you not have questions, make mistakes, and defer to your supervisor when you were in trouble? Did you never make a medication error in your early years? "those who live in glass houses...."

I also notice that nowhere in your list of "the enemy" do you even mention your clinician counterparts, the PAs. Nor do you refer to them as equal to NPs in any sense. You must realize that NPs and PAs function in essentially the same capacity. Except for the fact that PAs are trained similar to physicians in their model of medical education. They practice medicine, while NPs practice advanced nursing - not medicine. How can anyone who practices nursing, not medicine, have any claims to be comparable to a physician? This point can't be argued, because NPs have created their own Nursing Board to regulate their practice, claiming that doctors cannot/should not regulate nursing practice. If you want to start claiming to practice medicine, you had better start answering to your state's medical board instead. In my opinion, the creation of your state nursing boards was brilliant! What better way to refuse to be regulated by physicians then by claiming to refute the practice of medicine while embracing that of advanced nursing? It is only because of your nursing boards that NPs have any of the priviledges they enjoy today. Rx and Dx rights certainly would NEVER have been granted to you by the state medical boards, you realize.

You can't have it both ways - either you practice medicine or you practice nursing. Keep up the claim that you practice medicine and see how fast the state medical boards react....you would be wise to not s&^% where you eat!

Most jobs are even advertised for both NP/PA because they are essentially similar professions - MidLevel Practitioners, Primary Care Providers, whatever name you ascribe to them doesn't really matter. It's the care that is provided which SHOULD be the concern of all practitioners.

We would do well to join forces with those whose goals match our own. Think about joining the American College of Clinicians.

Thank you Kristinwiz. I agree with you completely!

you can't compare the practice of a nursing specialty to the practice of medicine. you can compare certain nursing specialties to medical specialties (nurse anesthetist to anesthesiologist, np to primary care physicians), but you can't compare one specialty of nursing to the whole entire profession of medicine. that's what you're doing when you say, "haven't np's proven to be as safe and effective as md's." md is not one specialty, it's an entire profession. just because you practice similarly to a medical specialist doesn't mean you should have the privileges of the entire profession.[/quote/]

perhaps you should research your stance before you start bashing the nursing profession. not only are nps as safe and effective as primary care physicians, they receive better ratings from the patient opinion questionares.

as reported in the journal of the american medical association, after one year, no significant differences were found in the health status or health services utilization of patients in the two study groups. phase ii of the study, conducted under this rwjf grant, built on the original project by collecting additional data to see if the findings were maintained over an additional year. the researchers conducted 756 interviews (with 439 np patients and 318 md patients from the original study) between april 1998 and december 1999, representing a 66.3% response rate. these interviews included questionnaires on health status, specific medical conditions, satisfaction, and health services utilization. the researchers validated health services utilization data with hospital data and some medicaid data. researchers found that patients who were assigned to nps were similar demographically to patients assigned to mds, and that in the year before this data collection, 33.3% of patients received care only at the assigned clinic; 6.3% received care at the assigned clinic and another provider; 27.1% only sought care elsewhere; and 32.4% did not seek primary health care at all. after the grant ended, the researchers also analyzed two sub-samples of patients who received primary care from the practices to which they were randomly assigned. the researchers concluded that the sub-sample analyses confirm the preliminary results: in an ambulatory care situation where nps have the same authority, responsibility, productivity, and administrative requirements as mds, patient outcomes are comparable.

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