MAN vs. MSN degree in Philippines

Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide · Mar 8, 2011

Graduates of these long standing institutions are trained to practice according to the ideal standards. And as far as I know, the ideals of basic nursing practice doesn't differ wherever you are.

Oh I agree, nursing is a universal profession. But Basic Nursing, as you call it, or Nursing 101 is CNA level job. Not that I'm diminishing that part of our role because professional nurses (RN's) still perform these roles especially in ICU's where 1:1 care is the norm. But let's be honest here, I've worked in the Philippines and in the US and I know things are done differently here and there because the mindset of nursing and the entire healthcare milieu there and here are totally different. I'm not saying that nurses from the Philippines could not adopt to nursing here in the US because a lot us have done so and are actually doing our jobs well here. That's exactly my point why IEN's would probably be better off with a BSN and some clinical experience...that's all you really need to draw from and the rest of the learning and acclimation will come later.

Also abroad does not always equate to US. This has also been a source of frustration for me.

You tell me. In your own words you asked if the MAN there can be made equivalent to a US MSN. And trust me, as someone who has been here in the US since the mid-nineties and have seen some of the ups and downs of the US economy, witnessed the disparities among Americans in terms of access to the most basic of human rights, felt concerned about the weakening of the American middle-class, I am well aware that the US is not what I thought it was before I came here. Don't get me wrong, I can't live anywhere else now but here and I love this country...but there are other great countries out there where you could have the life you want. I am only responding to you so I can share my experience and I'm not trying to put you down if that's what you feel I'm doing. I know the frustration you guys have over there about not having jobs and opportunities for a better future for yourselves.

nurseyapi · Mar 9, 2011

Hello I know this maybe a bit off topic but currently I'm managing Health Programs for more than 3 years here in the Philippines under the Department of Health (Infectious Diseases). I earned my BSN Degree here and passed NCLEX for NJ. My question is this- Is it still practical to apply as a hospital nurse there first or do I need to apply directly to a Management position. Kindly please advice. Thanks!

Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide · Mar 9, 2011

Hello I know this maybe a bit off topic but currently I'm managing Health Programs for more than 3 years here in the Philippines under the Department of Health (Infectious Diseases). I earned my BSN Degree here and passed NCLEX for NJ. My question is this- Is it still practical to apply as a hospital nurse there first or do I need to apply directly to a Management position. Kindly please advice. Thanks!

By saying "there", do you mean NJ, USA? If that's what you meant, I'm afraid you're affected by retrogression and the unfavorable job climate in the US, my friend. I'm also not clear about your role, do you manage a clinical unit like a Head Nurse or are you some kind of project manager in an Infectious Disease program for the DOH? When times were great and IEN's were arriving in busloads, I was not aware of any hospital that hired a nurse fresh from the Philippines in a management role. I do know of some nursing homes back in the 90's that hired IEN's and later promoted a few to management positions after they've been working for a number of months. But again, not to sound like a broken record, there's really very little hiring going on as far as nurses from outside of the US so it's definitely wiser to try other countries where you have a better chance of immigrating to.

Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide · Mar 9, 2011

Does CGFNS (Commission on Graduate Foreign Nursing Schools) evaluate the MAN/MSN programs as well? I'm curious as to anyone that has this certification.

I would imagine that CGFNS can provide the service to evaluate a foreign master's degree program in terms of equivalency to US standards. The CGFNS website doesn't mention it explicitly apart from a line in their website that states: "The CGFNS International Credentials Evaluation Service (CES) reports analyze the credentials of multiple levels of nursing professionals who are educated outside of the United States and who wish to pursue licensure or academic admission in the United States". By stating multiple levels, I'm wondering if this means they can actually evaluate all kinds of nursing degrees from BSN to MSN, and even PhD. Only CGFNS can answer that, I guess. There are practical reasons for a nurse to apply for evaluation of their foreign master's degree program other than for employment. One is for academic admission to a university for additional graduate studies such as a second master's degree (as someone already mentioned) or even for a PhD or DNP.

nurseyapi · Mar 10, 2011

By saying "there", do you mean NJ, USA? If that's what you meant, I'm afraid you're affected by retrogression and the unfavorable job climate in the US, my friend. I'm also not clear about your role, do you manage a clinical unit like a Head Nurse or are you some kind of project manager in an Infectious Disease program for the DOH? When times were great and IEN's were arriving in busloads, I was not aware of any hospital that hired a nurse fresh from the Philippines in a management role. I do know of some nursing homes back in the 90's that hired IEN's and later promoted a few to management positions after they've been working for a number of months. But again, not to sound like a broken record, there's really very little hiring going on as far as nurses from outside of the US so it's definitely wiser to try other countries where you have a better chance of immigrating to.

Thanks for the immediate response Juan Dela Cruz! :) I'm a Project Coordinator for the Tuberculosis Information System which means it is more inclined to Project Management. I understand your frustration in explaining redundantly to my fellow Filipino nurses that jobs for foreign nurses is limited and I really appreciate that you take time to share what you know.

Based on what I see, I cannot blame the eagerness of most of us (Filipino nurses) to work there. First, the mind set of most parents here who invested a hefty sum of money just to pay for their sons/daughters tuition fee is that they will have an immediate ROI (return of investment) because US is "the land of milk and honey". Second, Filipino culture dictates that progress would mean getting out of the country and earning any foreign currency. Haven't you wonder why there are millions of OFW scattered all over the world? It is indeed a sad reality. Third, availability of jobs/career options for nurses locally are scarce which would mean years of waiting just to have a spot in a tertiary hospital.

If my memory serves me right, it was between year 2004 and 2006 where nursing schools have started to mushroom and turned the profession as a commercialized industry. A lot where enrolling to nursing schools and it even came to a point where doctors are studying nursing. If I will continue to mention each possible reason why nursing in the Philippines has turned into an assembly line then maybe publishing a book would suffice to cite my frustrations.

Ranting about all this hullabaloos will not resolve anything and would not contribute to the resolution of the BIG problem. So for the love of the nursing profession:redbeathe:nurse:, I want to share what I think :idea: the best option to do while waiting for that American dream. :rolleyes: I may not be in the position to say these things but It won't hurt if we have a constructive way of looking at things.

1) Prioritize bedside/clinical work- I'm guilty of thinking all the feasible reasons to justify why I'm not practicing this learned craft and believe me I had a fair share of those should-have-been moments. Currently, I'm applying at PGH and other tertiary hospitals to re-align my career goals. Whether you like it or not, if you have plans to go outside as a nurse, there's no way of escaping that white uniform and patient chart.

2) Enhance nursing skills- Nursing is a continuous and dynamic profession thus to be at par with the changing times, enrolling yourself to an in-house hospital training or higher studies (MAN,MSN) is a must. Whether it will be accredited abroad or not, we should take it as a way of developing our career.

3) Be patient, take your time and continue learning- Regardless of numerous frustrations in waiting for that priority date (PD) to be current, we should be humble enough to accept reality and move forward. Nursing is not all about theories, clinical procedures and getting things done at the end of your shift. It is a way of life--a process. We must take time in practicing nursing locally, serve our fellow "kababayans" (lalo na sa mga iskolar) and contribute in uplifting the quality of health care in the Philippines.

4) Pray, Pray and Pray! - No matter how you plan things, if its not really for you then it will not happen. Always pray to God for a miracle

Oh well I think my post is becoming an eyesore to you all. Now, I waive my right to self-incrimination.

lactamase · Mar 10, 2011

Oh I agree, nursing is a universal profession. But Basic Nursing, as you call it, or Nursing 101 is CNA level job. Not that I'm diminishing that part of our role because professional nurses (RN's) still perform these roles especially in ICU's where 1:1 care is the norm. But let's be honest here, I've worked in the Philippines and in the US and I know things are done differently here and there because the mindset of nursing and the entire healthcare milieu there and here are totally different. I'm not saying that nurses from the Philippines could not adopt to nursing here in the US because a lot us have done so and are actually doing our jobs well here. That's exactly my point why IEN's would probably be better off with a BSN and some clinical experience...that's all you really need to draw from and the rest of the learning and acclimation will come later.
You tell me. In your own words you asked if the MAN there can be made equivalent to a US MSN. And trust me, as someone who has been here in the US since the mid-nineties and have seen some of the ups and downs of the US economy, witnessed the disparities among Americans in terms of access to the most basic of human rights, felt concerned about the weakening of the American middle-class, I am well aware that the US is not what I thought it was before I came here. Don't get me wrong, I can't live anywhere else now but here and I love this country...but there are other great countries out there where you could have the life you want. I am only responding to you so I can share my experience and I'm not trying to put you down if that's what you feel I'm doing. I know the frustration you guys have over there about not having jobs and opportunities for a better future for yourselves.

You got me confused here. You mean all that 4 years prepares you for a "CNA level job"? Seriously?

Also I said that most nurses would want to practice abroad. I only asked about that MAN to MSN conversion out of curiosity. I'm not even taking MAN but I do attend graduate school for a different degree. Just for the record, I'm not really into going to US. You must have thought so because of my question from the earlier post. I'm heading out for a different country, let say after finishing my 2 years of practice here in PH.

Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide · Mar 11, 2011

You got me confused here. You mean all that 4 years prepares you for a "CNA level job"? Seriously?

Let me familiarize you with the nursing terms you are using. You said in your own words "basic nursing" -- when you use that term, what you are referring to is Nursing 101 or Fundamentals of Nursing. No, I didn't have 4 years of Fundamentals of Nursing. Hey, good luck with your plans. I hope you DO learn more as you go further along with your life.

lactamase · Mar 12, 2011

Let me familiarize you with the nursing terms you are using. You said in your own words "basic nursing" -- when you use that term, what you are referring to is Nursing 101 or Fundamentals of Nursing. No, I didn't have 4 years of Fundamentals of Nursing. Hey, good luck with your plans. I hope you DO learn more as you go further along with your life.

Grab a fundamentals of nursing book and you'll see that basic nursing practice doesn't only involves CNA level responsibilities. Thanks anyway, there's still a long road ahead of me. Hope I'll be successful as you probably are.

Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide · Mar 12, 2011

Grab a fundamentals of nursing book and you'll see that basic nursing practice doesn't only involves CNA level responsibilities.

That's probably the difference between where you are and where I am now. In the US, technical stuff like bathing, ADL's, range of motion are done by non-licensed personnel. Even some ER's alow techs to insert foleys, NG tubes, and draw blood. That's not the essence of nursing practice to me. It's the critical thinking that makes a professional nurse.

ceridwyn · Mar 13, 2011

I was not going to weigh in to this discussion, how sad things have got to the stage in a work environment that non nurses are doing invasive procedures such as inserting a catheter and passing NG tubes...these procedures are not just technical or just a task but need someone who cares and is educated with critical thinking skills to see them not just as a body with a full bladder or a bowel obstruction, it needs a nurse to do these procedures to do the critical thinking, reassurance and care and assessment while doing the procedure. Letting non -nurses 'techs' do these important nursing procedures put nurses out of work, less employment and a patient with at times maybe not the best care a nurse could have given and at times not the best experience.

Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide · Mar 13, 2011

I was not going to weigh in to this discussion, how sad things have got to the stage in a work environment that non nurses are doing invasive procedures such as inserting a catheter and passing NG tubes...these procedures are not just technical or just a task but need someone who cares and is educated with critical thinking skills to see them not just as a body with a full bladder or a bowel obstruction, it needs a nurse to do these procedures to do the critical thinking, reassurance and care and assessment while doing the procedure. Letting non -nurses 'techs' do these important nursing procedures put nurses out of work, less employment and a patient with at times maybe not the best care a nurse could have given and at times not the best experience.

Oh I agree, I am not saying I'm an advocate of this practice. The ED I've worked in that allowed non-nurses to insert Foleys and NG tubes hire EMT's and foreign physicians (unlicensed in the US) as ER techs. Even though they are knowledgable in the field of healthcare, they are unlicensed and their practice hinges on the liability of the medical and nursing director if bad things happen as a consequence of their "delegated" role. That's the point I'm trying to say, anyone can learn "basics" from a book. As the saying goes, any monkey can be trained to do stuff. Nursing students progress through their program from the fundamentals or the basics to the rudiments of critical decision-making and multi-tasking that later develops. I don't care whether you graduated from UP or UST. Only in actual clinical practice can you really attain a certain degree of confidence as a professional nurse, not with any advanced degrees that is not supplemented by clinical experience.

lactamase · Mar 14, 2011

. Only in actual clinical practice can you really attain a certain degree of confidence as a professional nurse, not with any advanced degrees that is not supplemented by clinical experience.

That basically applies to all fresh grad nurses whether you are US or PH educated. And yes experience is the best teacher though I'd still make a point that the education you received is an undeniable aspect of your practice.