What my DON said about getting rid of LPN's - page 4

She said, in 1985 she started as an LPN, and when she was in school, they were told they would Graduate without a job! That was 1985, she is now an RN. She said "LPN's are licensed by the state!!... Read More

  1. by   Chellyse66
    Thanks Leeson LOL
    I have to say this post is ripe with emotions, but Tim making a public apology deserves attention because it shows that he is willing to accept a mistake and admit it.That is admirable enough to offset the "Monkeys" which he apologized for. I appreciate Hotspam because as stated the debate began with no boundaries, free for all was aptly termed. It is Nurses Week (even if we do not advocate the sappy happy quotes,)we could take a moment to focus on the unity issues.
  2. by   res04lly
    I am an LPN and i was pretty taken back by the Monkey statement.I have a problem with some of the comments and i accept Jason's apology also. Jason I have a question just for you? Have you ever really researched and LPN's practice and based it against the nurse practice act in your state? Point here is know what we can and can't do by researching it out,okay end of subject above. Now I think the point here is that the grandfathering IDEA was a concept of Something that Might come to pass. It was talked openly as i see in previous posts WAY back into the 70's and it's now 2001 and it has NOT happened. I feel that each level of education teaches skills that are useable to all, I have learned alot from ADN,BSN, and NP, but that does not mean that I would use any of it if it were outside the scope of my practice.The answer is NO. Professional behavior starts with everyone, giving the respect to each other and I really don't understand why we have to have all this trashing-a wise instructor once told me that when you trash one branch you trash the whole tree. Lets use the negative energy and channel it to something that well make a change for the better for everyone. We all can make a difference IF we try
  3. by   duckie
    I have sat back and read all of the posts and have not commented until now. I am so very sick and tired of the LPN vs. RN debate. We are all nurses and we are supposed to be professional, caring people! It makes no sense to me to keep beating this dead horse. I became an LPN in 1981 and was told at that time that LPN's would soon be eliminated, well guess what, we're still here and I seriously doubt with the nursing shortage that we will ever be "kicked out" of the profession. Now, as an LPN, I want to state loud and clear, I am fully aware that I have not had the formal education of the RN. Depending on what field of nursing the LPN goes into, we can have many skills that once only RN's were trained to do. We have been trained to do many of these things because there are not enough RN's to handle all of the patients that need care. If I were placed in a position of taking my assignments from an RN, I would do so and remember that I choose NOT to proceed forward and change the initials behind my name. BUT, I want every nurse, RN and LPN to realize, we are all important to the people we care for and we should all respect each other and stop putting each other down because none of us can do it all and we are supposed to be working as a team, for the best interest of our patients. I make no excuses that I am an LPN because "I am a damned good nurse!" I have coded and helped save lives, I have held the hands of many that were about to die, giving them comfort and dignity. I have comforted and prayed with many families as they cope with life without that special loved one. Maybe I cannot do all the technical proceedures that some RN's do, but I am still a nurse, giving care, love, compassion, understanding and kindness where it is needed. Yes, I wipe butts, make beds, and do all the lowly but necessary duties that come with my job but I do them with pride because I am good at it. Every RN I work with treats me as an equal, I do not feel put down or inferior. Maybe in their minds I am not an equal, but I am not looking for a "sign" of disrespect. I also work with some LPN's that think their S*** don't stink and tell the aids they didn't go to school to wipe butts. That's when I step in and tell them that all the nurses before us wiped butts and what makes them think they are so much better. To me it all boils down to whether or not you are secure within yourself, well yes I am. I don't need anyone to validate that I am a good, caring and hard working nurse that makes my residents laugh and feel loved. I'm certain that someone will think I'm way off base here but this is how I feel and I am proud of who I am. I am also proud of all of you, for you work very hard, everyday in jobs that stress you out and break the spirit, but when you stand before your maker, you will do so knowing what you did mattered and you DID make a difference!!! Why do we continue to stress ourselves out with this conflict, don't we have enough stress at work???
  4. by   Brownms46
    I have been requested by an NFLPN member to post this here, as they don't wish become a member, but feel the need to respond. The poster's name is Bob.

    I just read all the nasty-grams on allnurses.com. Damn. One thing I've learned from working in health care is that life is finite, and the time we have on this earth is far too short to waste ******** at each other over who can outnurse who. I just want to be the best person, nurse (regardless of the letters after my name) and (most importantly)the best father to my children that I can be. That whole discussion on allnurses.com really sucked the lifeforce out of me, so I suggest that the next time anybody out there feels like jumping into the ring over the whole RN/LPN thing, take that energy and go hug your kid or think of some way to better care for your patients or run out and get your hair done. We all know life's way too short for this kind of crap. That's why I said I felt sorry for that guy. People go to bed hungry every night, kids are born with AIDS every day, innocent people are hurt...let's just do our jobs and do the best we can as nurses and as human beings.

    1995 NFLPN. All rights reserved.

  5. by   NurseAngie
    Just ONE little question for Jason. Where did you get your statistical data from? I really doubt you can honstly say you BELIEVE your own post. I doubt there is a LPN alive that would disagree that education is most beneficial to ALL NURSES. To say that we're not capable is what we disagree with. I'm sorry for you. I feel fine about me.
    "Living life and LOVING it"
  6. by   kennedyj
    I have yet to see a bridge program from LPN to RN. I am suprised they do not have one. Most nursing schools will waive the nursing fundamentals course if you are an LPN but this is only one course. They could do a bridge course with a condensed med/surge course,then do peds, ob etc after the general studies are done. I guess it's easier to bridge ADN to BSN because more of the courses are the same. In an LPN program many schools have shorter courses that differ more. Still a university could do a bridge program after gen studies are complete and make some serious $$$$.

  7. by   Doc
    This has turned out to be a very interesting thread. I was surprised to see the way that psychomotor skills were downplayed. Some health professionals have great people skills and knowledge, but are very mediocre at performing psychomotor skills. In most places I have worked, there is one nurse we called upon to do difficult caths, or to do a venipuncture on someone with difficult veins. I agree that psychomotor skills are not the be all and end all, in the same way that NO one set of skills is the be all and end all. A nurse has to be well rounded, whether an RN or an LPN. The psychomotor skills are just as important. Psychologists are recognising more and more now the validity of physical intelligence. For instance, it is not education alone that makes a neurosurgeon, it is also a degree of psychomotor skill, coordination and aptitude that he/she has to have.

    In the same way I think it is unfair to say that an RN has more critical thinking skills than an LPN. You can only foster growth of critical thinking skills in a student. You cannot create that aptitude within them. This applies to every realm of nursing competency.

    It could be argued that a nurse who is very well-rounded in terms of competencies is a bit of a "jack of all trades, master of none". In the same way, a person who has superior people skills but is clumsy in psychomotor skills can be seen as incompetent, as could the reverse (someone with great psychomotor skills but poor people skills).

    On the other side of the coin, the above three personas can be seen in a positive light. A person who excels in a particular area can be the "specialist" nurse for that area on their floor. Having more of an aptitude in one realm and less in another should not be used in judgement of who makes a more professional nurse. Most nurses are aware of areas they can improve or have less of a capacity in. This awareness is very necessary in professional growth and in seeking assistance in certain things that you have less aptitude for - part of effective teamwork.

    Having said that, I also have to agree that the LPN and RN programs are quite different. I also know that one state's LPN course is different from another's. Also, in some states LPNs can give medications and draw bloods, and in others they cannot. Because of that none of us are qualified to say "this is the difference in training between LPNs and RNs". I do not know of any study that shows that RNs use more critical thinking, or perform some skills differently to LPNs as a result of the different type of knowledge they have. However, I have spoken to many LPNs and ENs (the Australian/NZ equivalent) who are final year Bachelors students and have stated that the new information they have been taught in the degree has changed the way they practice. This is enough proof for me.

    However, this doesn't make one a better nurse than the other. That is not the point the other posters like Suzy K have been trying to get across. What they are saying is that RNs have more academic training. With it comes more legal responsibility. The other point is that nursing is still struggling to gain respect as a profession. The Bachelors degree is important in achieving this. Increasingly, nurses are doing postgraduate studies. This is the way of the future.

    It's a shame that this has eroded into an argument. The points being made were simple (although some were not very well put). I highly doubt anyone here really has a "holier-than-thou" approach. Sometimes in order to hear someone's message, you need to "immunize" yourself from being offended by certain aspects of it, so that you don't miss the main point they are trying to get across.
  8. by   boxerlewis
    You are being rude. Of course there is an educational difference. But, we LPNs deserve a little respect. We, as well as others have compassion for our patients. I became an LPN because that is the level that allows me the most time and skills for caring for PEOPLE in need. So please don't demean my chosen proffesion.
  9. by   Headhurt
    What does everyone have against monkeys?? They are cute, fun, and they make everyone smile...even when they are flinging poo.
  10. by   ucandoit
    Quote from Future LPN Sheryl
    If you mean being considered "technical nurses" that is one thing - but I would hope and pray that no one can be an RN without taking the RN boards.

    I would imagine you would have to take the boards, but the way it is now an LPN doesn't get credit for what she/he already knows if they choose to take an RN course. It's still a 2 year program. So for an LPN to be an RN she goes to school for 3 years. I think (not sure) that they would change it to include the 1 year you already went.

    Anything is possible, when my mother became an RN it was a 4 year FULL TIME program, and it was cut down to 2 years Full Time. So who knows what the future holds.
    Look, I was an LPN fo 5 years and NO they will not be gettin rid of them any time soon. Yes, LPNs deserve just as much respect as an RN, and sometimes they can even teach us (RNs) a thing or two, but that doesn't mean that they are equal. I used to say that the only difference between an LPN and an RN was a couple of college classes and I never understood why LPNs and RNs were paid/treated different. Boy, was I wrong. I put my "money where my mouth was" and went to RN school. ( For one year of nursing plus all the
    prereqs., because of my LPN I was allowed to skip the first year) There is a HUGE difference between the two, RN's are taught and prepared to handle certain situations that LPN school doesn't prepare you for. The RN has alot more expectations to meet and I would in no way, dare try to do the RN's job while I was an LPN. So if you really want the job, and everything else that comes with that title, go back and get your RN. It really is possible, and you will be happy you did. I know I am! So, to all my beloved LPN's...Yes, us RN's do appreciate you, I would not be able to do my job without you! You are just as important as we are. Don't ever consider yourselves less than that. We need to join up as a team in nursing, or else our profession will suffer. Enough said by me.
  11. by   ucandoit
    Quote from Jason-ACNP
    Okay, look. I have not the time, the will, nor the desire to argue

    Yet, I find hilarious the number of LPNs who THINK they have what it takes to be an RN. Everyone wants to be considered a professional, BUT VERY FEW are willing to put forth the effort to reach that level. There are DISTINCT DIFFEERNCES in the education of an LPN vs. an ADN. And the BSN? The differences in education are incomparable. Okay, okay.....so you are better at making beds, inserting foleys, or other "technical" duties. So is a highly trained monkey. But can you think critically? Let me answer that for you....NO. 90% of LPNs don't know the meaning of critical thinking, much less have the ability to apply it. I think that it is safe to say that 99.9% of LPNs CANNOT take a critical situation and apply knowledge learned from physiology, pathophysiology, pharmacology etc. and apply it to that situation. It's possible to memorize a ton of information, but NOT UNDERSTAND ANY OF IT. That is precisely the reason why your scope of practice is limited, as well as why advanced practice nursing requires the BSN as a prerequisite.

    Yet, as always, nursing continues to seek the least common denominator - that which is easiest. What is the easiest and fastest way I can obtain my AND? That is no different than me stating, "How many classes can I skip in medical school? After all, I have eight years of full-time college education (and every prerequisite for medical school). I hold a BSN (4.0 G.P.A.) as well as a Masc. (3.95 G.P.A), in conjunction to years of VALUBLE experience. Don't forget!!! I already have prescriptive privileges, and I've tutored many of your medical students over the past two years in physical assessment skills! That should count for something!!!!! Pu-leeeaassseeee. Do you think they give a damn? Of course not. It is called S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D-S. Get it? One more time...
    S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D-S. By all means...pursue an AND (or whatever) in the fast track, but please...PLEASE - don't whine and moan because you aren't deemed a professional.

    Furthermore, the longstanding conviction that the BSN should be the entry level into nursing will never be adhered to. Thus, I am an advocate of having LPNs join the ANA in a limited capacity. There clearly needs to be unity within this field. But make no mistake. While unity is imperative for nursing to progress, there is a reason for the hierarchy. All nurses ARE NOT the same.

    As always, this is not meant to be construed as insensitive or rude. However, the issue has apparently become cloudy, and the need for clarification is quite evident. I am done with this issue. Take care.
    Oh, and Jason, GET OVER YOURSELF, IT SOUNDS LIKE A PERSONAL ISSUE! Mr. high and mighty nurse guy with every letter in the alphabet behind your name, it's called S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D-S- YOU GET IT! Obviously not maybe you can trade in all that advanced training of yours and get you some. If not I know of a couple of LPNs who could lend you some of theirs!!!
    Last edit by ucandoit on Jul 19, '04
  12. by   tntrn
    Very interesting reading. About 10 years ago our place when throught a "redesign" and in the process, everybody's Job description delineator changed. RN's were now Patient Care Coordinators, Aides were now Clinical Care Partners, Unit secretaries were now Asp's and I don't know what that stood for. Smoke screen, if you ask me, so the patients and families didn't know who anybody was or what their job descriptions were.

    In the process, the LVN's were told they could "become" CCP's (although they take boards and are licensed by the state) after a certain date because there would no longer be any LVN positions. So one day they are qualified to pass meds, do assessments, etc., and the next day they are not--as far as the hospital was concerned. None stayed, wonder why? And as an RN, I think it was the biggest mistake the place has ever made. Our LVN's were (and still are somewhere) good nurses. They worked hard, they were reliable, they were part of the team.

    One, who worked with us in OB, could organize discharges on 7 mother/baby couplets and have them all out the door, taught and paperwork done in her 8 hour day shift. She didn't work L & D, but in a pinch would have been a great help in a dire emergency. JMHO!

  13. by   Hellllllo Nurse
    My mil has been an RN since the late 50s.

    The "getting rid of LPNs" as well as the "Making all ADNs get a BSN" arguments have been around since before she started her nursing education.