Survey: What do you believe: "Nursing Shortage" Crisis or Opportunity?

STudentNurse-ph · Nov 16, 2002

nurses from the Philippines are not cheap in fairness because the US government are trying to prioritize nurses from out country

daveFL · Nov 17, 2002

StudentNurse,

I didn't intend any offense when I wrote "cheap nurses" and I wasn't refering to anyone in particular. By "cheap nurses" I meant nurses the hospitals could hire from outside the country and offer them slightly less money and benefits that they offer to American nurses. But, I will use this opportunity to correct myself because I've since found out that US immigration law forbids employers from hiring foreign workers and paying them less money than they would pay a US citizen to do the same job.

I suspect the reason more nurses from your country prefer to go to the UK is because the immigration laws over there offer them a bit more flexibility than they would get from the INS here. For one thing, if a US hospital sponsors you to come here to work the INS will give you a visa that restricts you work only for that hospital, and if you decide you don't like the hospital and you want to change jobs you can't do it unless you leave the US and apply to another hospital for sponsorship and go through the visa process again. If you try to change jobs without doing that you risk being deported on immigration violations, and if that happens it will be very difficult to get another visa to come back here.

Right now I'd say your chances of getting a sponsorship are pretty good. Good luck with it!

lee1 · Nov 17, 2002

Originally posted by daveFL
I see the "shortage" as an opportunity, so long as the INS doesn't issue 500,000 visas for foreign nurses to come in a create a glut of cheap nurses to displace us all.

I am SURE the AHA (American Hospital Association) who lobbies very heavily down in Washington to make sure that nurses are kept in their place at the bottom of the ladder in hospitals would love this.

Who do you think HAS been trying to change the visa laws??? Nurses????

The ANA had come out with a strict use of the immigrant nurses law which they had supported as they had discovered (mostly too late as usual) that nurses had been leaving the bedside due to the ever ongoing downsizing to meet or increase the bottom dollar at hospitals of nurses. You know that nurses are one of the top cost problems that hospitals have and anything they can do to decrease that is more profit for them. What happened over the last 12 years due to the supposed nursing glut we had then? Stripping/eroding away of benefits, higher pt to nurse ratios, more contributions towards benefits stripped away, etc. etc.

THIS is the reason why your more experienced nurses who have been around for more than a decade supported those stricter immigration laws.

Isabel Lobes · Nov 18, 2002

Having being reading the above conversation, I wanted to add to it that I am also one of the RN's who is in process of coming to the US and using this nursing shortage as an opportunity. But I wanted to make it clear here that it is indeed not very easy to come to the Sates as it has many hurdles. After proving to US that we are as much qualified as any other RN graduated from the States or any where in the world we still have to go through the INS procedure which is so time consuming that I think by the time one reaches the States many RNs can graduate from the US. I wonder why isn't' the focus more on training or otherwise why there is no short cut to bring in RNs from other country more quicker? It is almost now two years for me since I started to prepare to come to the US!

nightingale, RN · Nov 18, 2002

I believe there still are enough nurses (for right now) out there but many are unwilling to work in such unsatisfactory working conditions. Just look at the call offs of agency staff and the line of nurses willing to work agency in a large city like Denver, CO.

The only way to unite is to become one. But how? Well for me it has taken the form of joining the ANA and see where I will fit into creating change and improvements.

article=====

Bringing Vision into Reality

We need to believe that now is the time to overcome our long-festering and poisonous internal differences and realize the dividends of our diversity, celebrating all that we are, letting go of the old, tedious animosities and engaging in the proactive, creative process that will reinvent the nursing profession.

Proverbs tells us, "Without a vision, the people perish." Over the past two decades, our vision of nursing has been diminished by politics and policies; our spirit has ebbed. The submerged anger felt by nurses is being expressed-a healthy sign of emerging energy and spirit. We need to recognize the anger and leverage its energy; continuing to play the "blame game" among ourselves will siphon off valuable energy that could be better expended in working together to meet our common goals-and that of our patients.

Recreating our vision-and believing in our ability to see its fruition--will revive our spirit and keep our profession from perishing. Recreating our vision and believing in our ability to achieve it will relieve the stress, strain, and heartache nurses so often feel.

If we believe we have the insight, the strength, the creativity, the power, and the ability to master our destiny, we will. If we believe that the obstacles are too big, the forces are too powerful, and we are powerless to determine what is right for us and for our patients, that also will be the reality.

What will we decide? To believe or not believe, that is the question.

========

ANA is one way to unite. What other oppourtunities are out there for us to join in a united voice. I am asking for other ideas not a rhetorical statement.

I am seezing the shortage as an oppourtunity for agency nursing. I am also working where I can independently. So for me, it is oppourtunity...

But who will take care of me when I need it? I would not dream of encouraging my daughter to become a nurse. Not for the reason I had. I love, and still do, the direct patient care. This environment of too many patients, inconsistent respect, and poor working conditions is an embarassment to the profession.

B.

lee1 · Nov 18, 2002

Originally posted by Isabel Lobes
Having being reading the above conversation, I wanted to add to it that I am also one of the RN's who is in process of coming to the US and using this nursing shortage as an opportunity. But I wanted to make it clear here that it is indeed not very easy to come to the Sates as it has many hurdles. After proving to US that we are as much qualified as any other RN graduated from the States or any where in the world we still have to go through the INS procedure which is so time consuming that I think by the time one reaches the States many RNs can graduate from the US. I wonder why isn't' the focus more on training or otherwise why there is no short cut to bring in RNs from other country more quicker? It is almost now two years for me since I started to prepare to come to the US!

Because many schools of nursing have closed down, low pay for professors, low pay for nurses-----starts out good, goes nowhere.

What does your own country pay-------good salaries???? Don't forget there is still the unsolved dilemma of ADN/BSN schools. Also, do YOU pay your schooling or is it free????? USA is one of the few countries where college education costs are very expensive with few govt. supports although for nursing they are trying. I just finished paying $90,000 (cash, from my own pocket)for my 2 children to finish 4 years university at a state school, not private. How much did it cost you??? Also, it took them 5 years to finish if they didn't do many summer classes.

daveFL · Nov 18, 2002

Isabel,

Forget about short cuts with INS. They have been under so much pressure to get their act together since the terror incidents that there's no such thing as a short cut with them. Whatever was difficult and took a long time with will be more difficult and take even longer now that they are checking out aliens completely before they issue any visas. Are you applying to INS on your own or are you being sponsored by a hospital?

As for your question about training, there are no lines of people waiting to get into nursing school here in the States and I think its because college students know they can make much more money if they go into any other healthcare profession besides nursing. And, if you look at how much hospitals pay even experienced nurses, a career in nursing makes even less sense. A BSN makes only 50 cents more per hour than an RN, even though the BSN is about two additional years of college. To some people, its just not worth spending four years in college to qualify for a job with low pay and so much stress. In those same four years they could do a degree in business administration, civil engineering, or computer science and make much more money when they finish school than nurses do.

As for Lee1's comment about nursing schools, here in Florida all the nursing programs in the state colleges and universities are 'limited access' programs, which means they can't find enough people to teach (low pay for the professors) so they admit far fewer people into the program than those who apply each year. Yes, you can go to nursing school at a private university, but only if you can afford to pay about $20,000 per year and its crazy to take on that much in student loans to go into a career like nursing. With the salaries nurses make, you'd be paying back that $80,000 for the rest of your life.

Isabel Lobes · Nov 19, 2002

Lee1 & Dave,

What I meant by INS Short cuts were that since the nurses who want to come to US have already gone through many checks on educational backgrounds and exams. I mean they should have some sort of priority list and get the RN's who fulfill the requirement get them more quicker. Anyway whatever is being done by the INS is good especially under the current circumstances of terrorism the world is facing.

As for your next question, Yes, we have to pay our schooling, collage and universities. The people in third world country aren't so lucky to get any scholarships easily. Moreover being in a Muslim state the Muslim girls hardly go into nursing and the shortage here is also so severe that the ratio is 15:1, The people here rely only on Christian/another religion to join in for nursing and to top the most, the profession itself is looked down upon because of females coming into male contact etc. Besides the above hurdles the pay as usual is very low and one wonders why I wasted so much time in graduating in nursing then. Well the old story is the same low wedge, looked down upon and in near future there is no way of improvement at least here in my country.

The only way out seemed to go for a better life style where at least there is respect in the profession. I wish I had the guts to stick it out here but I do not have so my dear friends though the pay may still be lower than other profession out there (US) it is still much better than what we are getting here.

No offence but if you compare yourself with third world country and the benefits they do not have you will be surprised, so be glad that you have been born lucky where you do no not face so many other problems.

abrenrn · Nov 21, 2002

Our profession refuses to put us first. They cannot put the patient first without putting us first.

One person defined modern nursing: professional (i.e. studied, researched based practice), practically invented the use of statistics as well as significant public health issues.

Sadly, she also said a good doctor will listen to a nurse, if not, the nurse must make him understand. NO - the doctor needs to have an affirmative responsiblity to listen. When I'm up to my elbows in blood, urine, sick sick patients I can't always be diplomatic.

Why do doctors have such fragile egos?

She showed what nursing can do - at the time a hell of a lot more than medicine.

Although she said a professional nurse is responisble for all aspects of patients care (make sure it gets done, doesn't have to be you, can't be you 24 hours a day), I believe she believed she was the only true professional nurse.

She defined us then she cursed us. Don't know how we get past that curse.

Oh, I mean Florence Nightengale.

Yes, she rejected germ theory - germ theory at the time did nothing for asymptomatic carriage state - people just died, "oh, it's only contangion". She showed they wouldn't die if there was good sanitation.

She saved a lot of lives. But she rejected germ theory. Which is more important?????

Let's try to remember her good stuff:

Nurse - professional care to patient, takes care of patient; physician treats diseases. Two different focii, equally important.

Nurses look at the result of their treatment. If patient dies, the beauty of the theory doesn't matter.

Now get over the curse - make doctors know they must listen to us - or risk professional censure (like we do if we don't follow orders - I prefer to say implement a medical plan of care cause I can't do it if it ain't safe, so it is not an order); we all need to know what we are doing, not wait for someone to tell us our jobs (it's in our license) and not let employers force us to risk loss of license. Only work for employers who actually care about patients themselves - instead of leaving it in our hands, with maybe a few new graduates for a double load of patients. That is not an employer who cares about patients. A doctor who does not listen to all data re his patients disease cares more for his ego then his patient.

But I tried to get the ANA to write something direct, honest. They responded, "let's show them all the good we can do"

Look where that got Florence. She reduced death rate among wounded patients by a huge amount (they died with just the doctors, no nurses). But that's not what other nurses remember.

She rejected germ theory.

Right now, though, they got me by Maslow. I need to eat, I need to house myself and I'll probably try to find a job where I don't have to prostitute myself too much. I'm not sure a bookstore will pay my rent. I'm too old to be a call girl (it's how I'm starting to feel as a nurse though, selling my skills, forgetting my soul).

abrenrn · Nov 21, 2002

Sorry for bluntness folks. I've wasted 15 years of my life and now have to decide if I can survive on a book store salary or sell my soul. Which should I do?? I can't convince people nurses have souls (licenses) on my own. Too many seem to think we don't.

lee1 · Nov 22, 2002

"Yes, we have to pay our schooling, collage and universities. The people in third world country aren't so lucky to get any scholarships easily. "

HMMM, why is it that I hear that MDs in your country and India, get their education free????? At least the basic MD education. Maybe only India???

Isabel Lobes · Nov 23, 2002

One can dream about becoming MD here. No way it isn't free it is very expensive and very less medical school so most of the big shorts or with some power are able to get into medical school. Some nursing schools are free but then not many get into nursing here as mentioned earlier.

Well same old story few nurses, less pay, no0 respect and a lot of patients that's all folks all over the world and we have to keep trying to convince people to get into this honorable profession.

Hope some day we are proud to get many nurses whole heartedly willing to join and stick to this profession. Right now we are all complains and are dragging away our life and trying to convince ourselves we did not make a mistake by taking this beautiful, caring, satisfying profession.