Pandemic News/Awareness.

indigo girl · Mar 19, 2007

CRNI-ICU2O, I get that you think that the vaccine industry is driving our public policy regarding avian influenza. But how can this be true when everyone admits that there will be NO VACCINE until 6 to 12 months into a pandemic? Nor will there be any antivirals for most of us because there simply is not enough but for a very small percentage of the population. My own state's panflu plan says very clearly that for HCW, there will be no Tamiflu prophylaxis . So if we have NO access to antivirals, and NO vaccine, your assertion that Big Pharma is controlling things seems to be unfounded. That said, I do agree that they did interfere with policy in Texas, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about here.

Do you even know what our public health strategy is for an influenza pandemic? The CDC has said that it is layered mitigation strategies. That's it. I did a post on this earlier in this thread but you obviously missed the implications of what they were saying. The terrible truth is that we are being forced to used the same strategies as in l918 BECAUSE there is no vaccine, and there is very little Tamiflu. Big Pharma will NOT be providing anything until much, much later after many will have already died either from the disease or because there may not be enough food to feed everyone. Given this awful reality your argument about them driving policy can not possibly be true. They will have little to do with what is going to happen should this virus fulfill its potential.

I have stated that the concern about the possibility of an avian flu pandemic has everything to do with the very real changes the H5N1 virus has made. These scientific facts about the viral sequences, you have completely disregarded in your diatribe about the drug companies, and the CDC. You can't have a serious and rational discussion about whether or not there is real risk without even discussing this. But you have completely ignored these changes. I have to conclude that you are not very knowlegeable about this subject.

There is no further need to keep posting about the vaccine industry personnel. With all due respect, posting about problems with Salk's vaccine etc is way, way off topic in this thread. It has absolutely nothing to do with pandemic awareness. I am not sure that you did not intend to hijack the thread, as that appears to be exactly what has occurred here.

"...and not one shred of truth in their "data" to prove there really is a pandemic..."

Well, I would guess not. Could it be because there isn't one yet? Why would you even make such a statement? It is intentionally misleading. There is no human pandemic at this time, and everybody knows it.

You have asked about who is behind the science. There are many different scientists around the world involved in researching the H5N1 virus. There are virologists in many different labs involved in a world wide effort to track the changes in the virus. We need to know how the virus is changing for many reasons not just for future vaccine purposes. There is a whole history in this that you obviously are not familiar with. I have pointed out some of these changes, and why they are of concern. You ignored this also. I sincerely hope that you will see some reason for us to be looking at this issue besides making money, but given your agenda, I doubt it.

There WILL be another pandemic at some point in the future because these are naturally occurring events. They predate vaccines. They have nothing to do with making money, but everything to do with being exposed to a novel virus. There have aways been pandemics, and there always will be. Another fact that you completely ignore. I believe H5N1 is the next likely candidate because of its high case fatality rate, the way that it kills, the ages of the victims, and the changes in the virus itself.

You say that you see no point in this planning, calling it fear based even to discuss this issue. Informing our colleagues about our population's vulnerability to a novel Type A influenza virus is a necessity so I must most strongly disagree with you. For someone who believes it's all about Big Pharma controlling public health, I can see where you are coming from, but that is not reality. This is a necessary part of planning for the future. What would be irresponsible is NOT to plan for these EXPECTED, and naturally occurring events. And, BTW, this has nothing to do with the CDC making anything up. The viral sequences that are freely available at GenBank tell the real story. You are talking conspiracy theory, and bioterrorism. My concern is based on the reality of the H5N1 virus itself, period. If you don't believe govt sources or foreign health ministeries about what is going on in their own countries, well then, there is no further need for discussion. Let's just agree to disagree about what it means, and move on.

I do not want to get off topic about the CDC or vaccine companies. If you would rather believe your unsourced lamecherry blog over the CDC though, that's OK with me, but this thread was started to follow pandemic news/awareness, not your issues about past vaccines, or the people in that industry. If you want to discuss these things, I would suggest starting a thread specifically on those topics instead of trying to take over this one.

I have stated very clearly why I believe that H5N1 is a concern, and it has nothing to do with these organizations, not the CDC or any planners, it's the virus itself. Again, I understand your beliefs about this in relation to pandemic planning, but I refuse to discuss conspiracy theory, and profiteering. I think it is out of alignment with reality. I do thank you for the discussion, but I can go no further with this line of thinking. We shall have to agree to disagree about this.

BTW, your own source on about the SARS "cure" states very clearly that they were just starting clinical trials on a vaccine. The Chinese were also doing trials, CRNI-ICU20. Trials are NOT the same thing as a cure by any means. Most people would realize this.

Stay well.

indigo girl · Mar 19, 2007

Another Egyptian child, 2 years old has tested positive for avian flu. This article says that the 10 year old has recovered, and points out that this is an odd way to tell us about her recovery.

http://crofsblogs.typepad.com/h5n1/2007/03/egyptian_boy_2_.html

In Indonesia, there has been another death, the victim is a 21 year old female:

http://crofsblogs.typepad.com/h5n1/2007/03/death_of_woman_.html

CRNI-ICU20 · Mar 20, 2007

austin — gov. rick perry ordered today that schoolgirls in texas must be vaccinated against the sexually transmitted virus that causes cervical cancer, making texas the first state to require the shots.

the girls will have to get merck & co.'s new vaccine against strains of the human papillomavirus, or hpv, that are responsible for most cases of cervical cancer.

merck is bankrolling efforts to pass laws in state legislatures across the country mandating its gardasil vaccine for girls as young as 11 or 12. it doubled its lobbying budget in texas and has funneled money through women in government, an advocacy group made up of female state legislators around the country.

details of the order were not immediately available, but the governor's office confirmed to the associated press that he was signing the order and he would comment friday afternoon.

perry has several ties to merck and women in government. one of the drug company's three lobbyists in texas is mike toomey, his former chief of staff. his current chief of staff's mother-in-law, texas republican state rep. dianne white delisi, is a state director for women in government.

toomey was expected to be able to woo conservative legislators concerned about the requirement stepping on parent's rights and about signaling tacit approval of sexual activity to young girls. delisi, as head of the house public health committee, which likely would have considered legislation filed by a democratic member, also would have helped ease conservative opposition.

perry also received $6,000 from merck's political action committee during his re-election campaign.

http://educate-yourself.org/vcd/texasgovforcescervicalvaccine02feb07.shtml

here is my case in point.....

if this isn't drug company lobbyists driving public health policy in this country, i don't know what is.

a $6k contribution to his campaign coffer is chump change.....

they will and are making millions....esp. if the drug company can make this mandatory in every state, which is their goal...

please...rethink your statement...that you don't believe that drug companies and vaccine makers do this...

as far as your concern about a virus which seems to have "super virus" qualities....i agree, it's a big concern...

what i can't buy into is the "panic" in the "pandemic" thinking that somehow this will overtake millions of people....

more people die of bee stings a year than did from this "pandemic"....and the cdc is calling this a pandemic....which i think is irresponsible....because it scares people....it scares them into receiving unnecessary vaccinations which have been many times more often than not, proven to be ineffective and nearly always harmful.....

the above vaccine has not been trialed on young children....yet we have a govenor, a state legislator, a lobbyist, all singing the merck fight song to get this into every child in this nation....for money....lots and lots of money....and using our children as test rats.

before any more stuff gets put in our water, our food, our air, or our bodies, shouldn't we be more concerned about the conglomerates who do this??? seems to me, this is the pandemic.

thanks for the thread...

and for your tolerance...

it's just my opinion, but i do believe there is much intertwining of these subjects....i believe you cannot really talk about pandemic, without the sources and solutions....

CRNI-ICU20 · Mar 20, 2007

BTW....

Donald Rumsfeld Former Secretary of Defense, stands to gain $25 Million dollars from his holdings with Giliead (the maker of Tamiflu)(they are a divisin of Roche)

He was Gilead's chairman in 1997, before joining the Bush administration.....

All of our soldiers were ORDERED to have Tamiflu as part of their "vaccinations"...(nice defense contract, eh?)

Tamiflu has some very bad side effects...lethal, actually....and it will not protect our military against avian strains...and has little or no efficacy for even type A flu....so why would our country foot the bill for so many military men and women to have this drug????

it isn't because Roche cares about our military....

http://www.rutherford.org/articles_db/commentary.asp?record_id=449

indigo girl · Mar 20, 2007

1) who is doing the testing?
2)who is saying there's a pandemic?
3)who is providing the antidote/vaccine
4)how much money is involved?

I am going to attempt to reply to your posts. And, then I am going to get back on topic, and move on.

(1) Who is doing the testing? Testing for what? Are you talking about

testing the victims to see if they have a novel flu virus? That is the only testing that I am talking about in this thread.

Victims are usually tested at hospital, and the determination of the test may be done by a variety of labs. In Egypt, NAMRU3, a US Naval lab, has been doing the testing as well as providing the critically important work in sequencing the virus.

(2) Who is saying that there is a pandemic? Nobody. So why ask the question? We all know it isn't true. A pandemic is defined as an epidemic that is prevalent on more than one continent. There have been limited human to human transmission of H5N1. That is all.

This does not qualify as a human epidemic nor pandemic.

(3)Vaccines and antidotes, I believe you mean antivirals, as you well know are provided by the pharmaceutical companies. Yes, of course they will make money supplying the national stockpiles which BTW, very few of the actual poplulation have any chance of receiving. Again, if you want to talk about this at length, please start a thread for it.

(4)How much money is involved? Again, I am not going to argue this one.

I have no interest in Mr. Rumsfeld's stake in Gilead.

What I can't buy into is the "panic" in the "pandemic" thinking that somehow this will overtake millions of people....
More people die of bee stings a year than did from this "pandemic".

This statement from post 135 makes no sense at all given that the pandemic has not occurred yet. We are talking about a possible future event in this thread, please.

The information about Jonas Salk and the polio vaccine is of course off topic. Clearly, your interest is not in discussing pandemic influenza.

indigo girl · Mar 20, 2007

Posts #124, 125, and 126 are off topic for this thread.

indigo girl · Mar 20, 2007

Here's a question for you....
Do you remember SARS?
Do you remember how many ACTUAL cases of SARS DEATHS between 2001 and 2003 were documented...
Do you remember the "epidemic" geographical source?
(It was China)
When it started to spread across Vietnam, Japan?
Do you remember the 'epidemic' source of the disease, ie, animal, vegetable, mineral???and how humans contracted?
How long did it take the scientists involved to develope a vaccine?
ANSWERS:
SARS=severe acute respiratory syndrome associated with one of many corona viruses
about 9 people infected with ONE DEATH (which begs the question of "is this epidemic?")
Guangdong Province (more on that place, later)
no real proof...but WHO surmised the source was civet cats, which were part of a food source for humans in that province; they also found the same virus and antibodies in bats, or so they say.
years 2001-2003
Less than a year....to develope a complete cure!!early 2004(doesn't this seem really unusual to any of you?)
NOW:
In this particular area of China, it isn't exactly a mecca for modernization....mostly farmers...who actually get paid to give their blood to vaccine makers from around the world...and who have one of the highest incidences of HIV in the world...(no kidding) because the same needles are used over and over (bad for the farmers!)
This same area of China was touted as being soooo lax in their handling of the virus in laboratories that when one of their own scientists was infected and traveled outside the province, over 92 people were quarantined to prevent the possibility of the spread of the disease....
What boggles my mind, and maybe it should yours, is this same area of China managed to come up with a quick and easy cure within JUST MONTHS OF THE OUTBREAK AND IDENTIFICATION OF THE DISEASE.
Don't you find that a bit odd?
I mean, initially WHO complained that there was soooo much red tape and beauracracy (sic) that they were unable to even get the Chinese to cooperate and help identify the 'alledged' outbreak...now they suddenly have the antidote????
Now...this same place....exact same place....with in months....the place that mishandled the virus that led to the contamination of 92 other people outside the province, suddenly bingo bango! developes a CURE?
How can that be???
ANSWER:
THE DISEASE WAS A MANUFACTURED, SCIENTIFICALLY DESIGNED VIRUS....SO THE CURE WAS VERY SIMPLE TO FIND....SINCE THEY ALREADY KNEW HOW THE DISEASE WAS MADE....
Could then, the H5N1 avian flu virus be a similar virus?
Bioterrorism isn't limited to experimentation with just humans and a smallpox 'bug'.....
Our own government via CIA and Military have researched and perfected warfare that isn't necessarily delivered by way of a dropped bomb....
How much more subtle than to use animal vectoring to wipe out whole populations of people....everything from food source animals to mosquitoes...to migrating water fowl.
Our own military did this during the earliest years of establishing this country, by giving blankets to the Indians that were contaminated with smallpox.....as gifts.....it wiped out thousands.
Corona viruses are some of the hardest viruses to kill or develop antidotal vaccines for, yet the Chinese managed to this within just months????
H5N1 has a similar difficulty....
Here's an article worth looking at:
http://lamecherry.blogspot.com/2007/03/chicom-trail-bird-flu-sars-guangdong.html
Odd that the H5N1 and SARS were located within the LARGEST MILITARY FACILITY IN CHINA.....
hmmmmm.

OK. What can I say? This post not only off topic, it's off the planet. This kind of speculation does not belong here.

indigo girl · Mar 20, 2007

mr. john barry, author of the great influenza
dr. richard webby, professor, st. jude children’s hospital—this is an addition
mr. george abercrombie, ceo, roche pharmaceuticals {what is a ceo of roche doing on a panel that decides whether or not there is a pandemic flu problem?}
mr. daniel soland, president of vaccines, chiron corporation – this is a change this guy is a mr. not a dr. i got it wrong before (chiron is the largest vaccine maker in the world...operates in 13 countries, 5 continents....do you think they have an agenda sitting on this panel?}
mr. chris viehbacher, president, glaxosmithkline { another drug company ceo}
dr. mary mincer hansen, director, iowa department of public health
dr. calvin johnson, secretary of health, commonwealth of pennsylvania
dr. bruce w. dixon, director, allegheny county department of public health
dr. joanne godley, acting health commissioner, philadelphia department of social services

i am fairly certain that if one did a little investigation, one would find that many of the others on this panel have stock in the companies that they are helping to perpetuate with their "scientific" data.....

this is what i mean by drug companies setting public health policy.....
the only people who should be making public health policy are those who reside in that profession and of them, should not have any ties, monetary or otherwise, to drug companies.....
the temptation to feather one's own nest is far too overbearing.....

i have no idea what panel you are referring to. i have zero interest in further discussion about the money that big pharma will make. your concern about public policy could be better addressed in other ways than with highjacking this thread. really, any talk about vaccines and antivirals belongs in the hopes and dreams category because there is no vaccine and darn little tamiflu.

yes, i am well aware of the revolving door relationship between the fda and the drug companies. again, it is another topic and does not belong here.

indigo girl · Mar 20, 2007

mr. george ambercrombie, ceo roche pharmaceuticals.....
roche pharm. makes tamiflu
roche, the maker (i.e., the inventor and owner) of tamiflu,
tamiflu is the drug of choice being touted for avian flu strains....
http://www.witts.org/vaccine_14_dec06/vaccine_business.htm
...all of them are hoping that they can "create" a pandemic....create the image of one....and cause people to panic and run to their doctor for the newest shot.....and not one shred of truth in their "data" to prove there really is a pandemic.....

basic virology, you can not create a pandemic. it requires a novel flu virus becoming easily transmissible to a host with no immunity. you can't make it happen. you can't fake it.

even if people ran to their docs as you infer, hello! they will not be receiving a pandemic vaccine that does not even exist yet.

indigo girl · Mar 20, 2007

AUSTIN — Gov. Rick Perry ordered today that schoolgirls in Texas must be vaccinated against the sexually transmitted virus that causes cervical cancer, making Texas the first state to require the shots.
http://educate-yourself.org/vcd/texasgovforcescervicalvaccine02feb07.shtml
Please...rethink your statement...that you don't believe that drug companies and vaccine makers do this...
As far as your concern about a virus which seems to have "super virus" qualities....I agree, it's a big concern...What I can't buy into is the "panic" in the "pandemic" thinking that somehow this will overtake millions of people....
I actually agreed with you about what happened in Texas. In that case, they did have a lot to do with public policy. But, not when it comes to pandemic influenza. Again, any chance of a vaccine or having enough antivirals for our population belongs in the hopes and dreams category. It's not going to happen in time.
Your next sentence seems to be saying that you just can not believe that a severe pandemic actually COULD occur and kill millions of people. It is much easier for you to believe that drug companies are "creating" an illusion that this could happen. It really hasn't sunk in for you that we, humans have no immunity to this virus with its case fatality rate of over 60%, and that it has now appeared on three different continents in over 50 countries. The very real and dangerous changes that this virus has made, don't register for you, that young people are at the greatest risk of dying. I really get that you just can not go there. The reality of what this virus is already doing really is frightening. We can not help the fact that this is frightening information, but we can still do many things to prepare and protect our people. Unfortunately, if this virus does develop the ability to be easily transmissible, your denial about what is happening won't matter. I really hope that you will get past this and get your family ready. I really do wish that for you.

CRNI-ICU20 · Mar 21, 2007

Indigo Girl,

The panel was from one of your own threads.....the panel was one that was supposedly meeting to decide how to handle the "pandemic" avian flu....

http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/sho...35&postcount=1

The panel wasn't suggested reading by me...it was suggested reading by you..

Sorry if what I was bringing into this thread seemed to offend you...

Like I said, I don't disagree with your concern...

I think Avian Flu has potential to become a pandemic....(the CDC until just a few months ago was referring to it as a pandemic...but later changed their minds....due to pressure from outside health watchers who felt their fears were not based on factual information.)

You mentioned Tamiflu in your second thread....so I thought mentioning that there's another side that isn't mentioned in your article would be educational for the readers of this thread...because many are military families and personnel who have received Tamiflu....I didn't realize that by mentioning this other side of Tamiflu was verboten.

I guess it's best if I don't comment....snce you seem to have strong feelings that go with this, beyond just academic discussion...

indigo girl · Mar 21, 2007

Indigo Girl,
The panel was from one of your own threads.....the panel was one that was supposedly meeting to decide how to handle the "pandemic" avian flu....
http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/sho...35&postcount=1
The panel wasn't suggested reading by me...it was suggested reading by you..
Sorry if what I was bringing into this thread seemed to offend you...
Like I said, I don't disagree with your concern...
I think Avian Flu has potential to become a pandemic....(the CDC until just a few months ago was referring to it as a pandemic...but later changed their minds....due to pressure from outside health watchers who felt their fears were not based on factual information.)
You mentioned Tamiflu in your second thread....so I thought mentioning that there's another side that isn't mentioned in your article would be educational for the readers of this thread...because many are military families and personnel who have received Tamiflu....I didn't realize that by mentioning this other side of Tamiflu was verboten.
I guess it's best if I don't comment....snce you seem to have strong feelings that go with this, beyond just academic discussion...

Thanks for letting me know what panel you were referring to. Posting information without listing the source even if I provided it originally, and then expecting me to remember everything I posted in these long panflu threads is a little unrealistic. Listing sources is much appreciated.

I have been following the subject of pandemic influenza for the past year. I don't EVER recall the CDC declaring that a pandemic was occurring right now. It's hard to believe that I could have missed such a pronouncement. I can only imagine someone taking a statement out of context perhaps, but unless a link to the source is provided, I can not take this seriously.

I never said that I was offended by other points of view. I do find it off putting that you have NOT been discussing pandemic influenza. It is now seems clear that the intent is not to do so.

It is also misleading to imply that discussion of the adverse effects of Tamiflu is a forbidden topic. That also did not come from me. I am well aware that Tamiflu is said to cause some serious side effects (like suicide). I am also aware that vaccines can have adverse effects.

I believe that preparing the nation for the possibility of pandemic is a very serious topic. It deserves serious consideration. This is not a joking matter. Criticism of drug companies and vaccine makers, and prolonged discussion of profit motives have no place in this thread though I now understand your need to place blame there considering your mindset.

I am sorry to disappoint you. You made some points. They just had nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

Other people have debated with me about the possibility of pandemic, but they never hijacked any of the threads. They just simply disagreed. So what happened here? There is a name for what has occurred here.