Frontier Clinical Bound

midwyf · Jun 21, 2008

THis does happen at Frontier but not at Frontier Bound. Frontier Bound is the orientation session that lasts 4 days. Then you do course work for 12-18 months (depending if you are full-time or part-time) and then you come to campus for an 8 day skills session with a smaller group before you start clinical. Here students do physical exams including pelvic exams on each other, not really as bad as you think and anyone who really opposes this does not have to have one done on themselves (although they do have to do one before starting clinical). The philosophy is that you can leanr alot both ways (having one done and doing one).

Selke · Jun 21, 2008

I hear that students have to practice pelvic exams on each other in every program, not just Frontier.

midwyf · Jun 21, 2008

I hear that students have to practice pelvic exams on each other in every program, not just Frontier.

I think it's true for most program although I think a few hire women to a t as models.

MidwifeMom · Jun 21, 2008

I know Columbia does this for sure but was unsure about Frontier. Midwyf what do you mean students have to do one before they can start clinical? Does it have to be on a mannequin or another student? My main concern for this practice is student who have a history of sexual abuse or a sexually transmitted disease. I realize midwifery student are primarily women, but what about male students? I have also never heard of medical students or ob residents practicing on each other and I think this would be considered sexist if they "forced" female students to participate. I don't think the philosophy applies to this situation, because most women have had pelvic exams in the past and know what a pelvic feels like. (Same thing with shots, iv sticks, etc) That's what the Sim man is for. Let's not forget that these are still our bodies and we are practicing medical procedures that are medically uneccessary. I think most midwife students go through with this because they are too afraid to stand up for themselves. In my opinion this practice is outdated and completely unethical. We pay enough for school that they should be able to hire "models" or gynecological teaching assistants.

If you don't go into midwifery with a compassionate attitude to begin with than you shouldn't be in the profession. No one can make you compassionate and caring to patients if you are not compassionate and caring:angryfire.

zahryia, LPN · Jun 22, 2008

I know Columbia does this for sure but was unsure about Frontier. Midwyf what do you mean students have to do one before they can start clinical? Does it have to be on a mannequin or another student? My main concern for this practice is student who have a history of sexual abuse or a sexually transmitted disease. I realize midwifery student are primarily women, but what about male students? I have also never heard of medical students or ob residents practicing on each other and I think this would be considered sexist if they "forced" female students to participate. I don't think the philosophy applies to this situation, because most women have had pelvic exams in the past and know what a pelvic feels like. (Same thing with shots, iv sticks, etc) That's what the Sim man is for. Let's not forget that these are still our bodies and we are practicing medical procedures that are medically uneccessary. I think most midwife students go through with this because they are too afraid to stand up for themselves. In my opinion this practice is outdated and completely unethical. We pay enough for school that they should be able to hire "models" or gynecological teaching assistants.
If you don't go into midwifery with a compassionate attitude to begin with than you shouldn't be in the profession. No one can make you compassionate and caring to patients if you are not compassionate and caring:angryfire.

I hope this is not your main concern-as you stated several reasons- for not wanting to do this, because your population will certainly comprise of women with histories of sexual abuse/assault and/or STDs. I don't care if your practicing in the 'heartland' (can't stand that term), upscale areas or the hood. It happens everywhere.

Having said that, I happen to relate to your angst about this process. I'm not crazy about it. I don't like people 'practicing' on my lady parts. As it is, I'm not crazy about pelvic exams with experienced providers; much less students.

Reminds me of when I was in cliinical and I refused to get a fingerstick from other students, but I was more than happy to do them on my classmates. My instructor wasn't happy with me, but oh well.

MidwifeMom · Jun 23, 2008

I understand that the population of women will consist of women with stds or sexual abuse which are extremely vulnerable. I do not agree with causing these women more trauma then what they have already experienced. Making them go through a pelvic exam without the privacy of their trusted healthcare provider (not fellow students) when it is medically uneccessary is not acceptable to me. This causing more harm then good in my opinion. I also do not think it is fair to women (from a feminist standpoint) because men would never have to do these type of procedures on each other.

Selke · Jun 23, 2008

I understand that the population of women will consist of women with stds or sexual abuse which are extremely vulnerable. I do not agree with causing these women more trauma then what they have already experienced. Making them go through a pelvic exam without the privacy of their trusted healthcare provider (not fellow students) when it is medically uneccessary is not acceptable to me. This causing more harm then good in my opinion. I also do not think it is fair to women (from a feminist standpoint) because men would never have to do these type of procedures on each other.

I have been having trouble understanding your posts and what your point is. Are you referring to other students with whom one must practice pelvic exams as the"population of women will consist of women with stds or sexual abuse which are extremely vulnerable"? Do you personally have a history of STIs or sexual abuse and do not want to have other students perform an exam on you? Any STI should be treated, anyway, unless one has herpes that can flare up, say, unpredictably under stress. I would think any student with active herpes has an absolute right to refuse an exam and would not have to go into detail with the instructor.

When I was at Clinical Bound (CB) there were a few students who did not have exams done on them. Several women had had hysterectomies and had no cervix, so they were excused. If a student had a real objection to being examined, one could refuse. I refused a physical exam at the checkoff because I have other physical issues I did not want exposed to my classmates for potential ridicule, but the pelvic did not bother me so much, so I volunteered for an extra one.

What do men have to do with this? There were no male students at my CB. Are you referring to the fact that if there are male students they get to perform exams on their female classmates, but they do not likewise have to have an exam from the women in the class?

We discussed this at CB and tended to agree it is not fair. I might have refused to let a male examine me, but it did not come up. It is true Frontier does not pay gyne teaching associates and I feel they should.

HeritageRN · Jun 23, 2008

I agree that if you are not comfortable with doing this that you should not be forced to do it, but it does sound like they are understanding of those who choose not to have it done. Personally I do not have a problem with it and welcome the learning experience. I think it is a great learning opportunity for me and my classmate. I can give feedback to her and have an open dialog of what is happening and visa versa. I don't think anyone should make this the determining point as to what school you attend since it can be refused. Choose a school who's mission and philosophy's mesh best with yours, knowing that there may be some things that you feel differently on. Good luck in choosing your path.

MidwifeMom · Jun 23, 2008

Sorry, let me clarify a little. I just feel like students with a history of an STD or sexual abuse should have the right to refuse just because the experience itself might be traumatizing for them emotionally. Frontier's handbook made it sound like it was a mandatory thing before begining clinicals. If it is strictly optional than I think that is fine and would be a great learning experience. My post was based strictly upon REQUIRED pelvic exams. I have heard some schools like Columbia require this. Here is the forum on allnurses that talks about male student going to the hospital and females being required to practice on each other.

https://allnurses.com/forums/f223/columbia-university-etp-2008-a-257838-36.html

There is also a documentary call At Your Cervix, that identifies this as an issue in colleges. The documentary also talks about medical students doing exams on anesthesized women which is completely unethical. http://www.atyourcervixmovie.com

I just think that women should have the right to choose whether or not they participate in this experience and I wanted to get feedback on others who have done this while attending Clinical Bound.

As far as male students, I was just stating that it wouldn't be fair to require female students to practice on each other, while male students go to the hospital, etc.

Another point I was trying to make was that if it was required than I would reevaluate what schools I want to go to.

Thanks for all the feedback. I am glad to hear that the process is voluntary.

Baby Catcher, CNM · Jun 29, 2008

This is how it works at Frontier. You and a partner of your choice go into an exam room with an instructor. You each do a pelvic exam on each other. No big deal. If you don't want to let someone do an exam on you, don't, but then you may not find someone to let you practice on them which is a requirement to pass clinical bound. To a mature adult female it's no big deal. If this is such an issue, you may not be ready for midwife school.

MidwifeMom · Jun 30, 2008

I don't think it is a question of maturity or not. I think it has to do with being the one in charge of your own body and not accepting less. I will not exploit my body for teaching purposes. I am actually shocked at how many women would just lay down and do this without any objections. I guess this just proves that women really are still considered the weaker sex and sexist practices are still being used. As i said before this would never be accepted in medical schools or schools with more men. Men would not agree to practice catheters or prostate exams on each other. If you can't speak up for yourself on issues like this then how can you ever advocate for your patients who are extremely vulnerable. How will you (as a midwife) ever sympathize with women like me who find pelvic exams to be humiliating and traumatic. Midwifery should be about empowering women not continuing to support the belief that the "norm" in our society should be passive, voiceless women.