Doctoral degree to become an NP???

rhp123 · Jan 7, 2005

"The Practice Doctorate is designed for nurses seeking a terminal degree in nursing practice, and offers an alternative to research focused doctoral programs (i.e. PhD programs). Though only a handful of practice doctorates currently exist, more than a dozen new programs are taking shape nationwide, and several have expressed interest in seeking accreditation."
Does anyone know what schools offer this program now?
-Kate

As far as I remember, columbia university has one, there is a school in colorado has one (u. or colorado or Colorado state, I cannot remember). Check their websites.

Traveler · Jan 8, 2005

I believe East Tennessee State University does.

My big question with this whole debate is why. Assuming that a nurse first gets their BSN. The last 2 years in school is spent on nursing. If they go on to get their MSN that is another year and a half to two years. That is 3.5-4 years in school just for nursing. A doctor spends four years in medical school since the first 4 years is just general ed. If this requirement comes to be, APRN's would have more medical education than doctors.

sharann, BSN, RN · Jan 15, 2005

I have just read about this in Nursing 2005 and I am disgusted. What is wrong with these people up there in their ivory towers? A DSN to be a NP? What's next? Maybe they should require a BS degree for nursing asistants and a Masters for unit secretary. It seems that they want to have nurses use the title "Doctor". Why are they cometing with the M.D's? No matter what we will be called we are still nurses! We should be proud of that. It makes me re-think my desire to pursue the MSN after I complete my BSN(or should I just drop it now?)

*PICURN* · Jan 16, 2005

When do you think this will all come into effect?

I'm planning to enroll in an ADN-BSN-MSN program to become an NP starting next year (Jun 2006)

Anyone know if this is going to take awhile to come into effect? :uhoh3:

VickyRN, MSN, DNP, RN · Jan 16, 2005

When do you think this will all come into effect?
I'm planning to enroll in an ADN-BSN-MSN program to become an NP starting next year (Jun 2006)
Anyone know if this is going to take awhile to come into effect?

This is just the AACN's *proposal*. It may never come into effect, due to sheer impracticality and the fact that we are in the worst nursing shortage since WWII! After talking to my advisor, who is the head of the graduate nursing department at my university (very large, state run nursing program), she did not sound too thrilled about these proposed changes. They have enough problems finding faculty and students for most of the masters programs. Many of the faculty teaching in these programs only have masters! The idea of DOCTORATE for NPs and other APRNs will face enormous opposition and will probably never get off the ground.

jtriggy · Jan 21, 2005

Pending state approval...forever?

FNP/DNP · Feb 4, 2005

My concern is that there is a nursing shortage to begin with and making it even longer and more difficult to get new blood in there will turn off people who are looking at nursing as a second career. I mean, I'm in a direct entry graduate program, and if I had to first get my masters and then my PhD in nursing, that would likely alter my decision to become an NP, just because we can't afford to have me in school for that long.

I am new to this forum and I have a Doctor of Nursing Practice from Rush University as a Nurse Practitioner. The new position statement is declaring that by the year 2015 all NP's will have to have this. I believe there will be some grandfathering in to those with master's degrees. Some of the schools moving to this are Columbia, Case Western, Purdue University, Unviversity of Tennesee, among others. I personally feel that this is a good move, I think it is hard to get all of the needed information at the master's level. That is just my personal opinion. I realize there is a nursing shortage, but there is NOT a nurse practitioner shortage. There are way too many programs (300) and many NP's are having a tough time getting a job because supply is greater than demand.

I think they are pushing this due to the graying of faculty with doctorates- it is an alternative to the PHD (much less of a time committment). I teach both undergrads and NP's and find the degree works well for me. I need to maintain a practice and cannot commit to a PhD program while teaching and practicing. You would bypass the master's degree. Check these programs out- I think you will like them. I felt very prepared when I graduated- wouldn't change a thing! If you have any questions please contact me- I have been very interested in the new developments!

Snoopd · Feb 4, 2005

I understand the importance of education as it relates to competency of practice and personal fulfillment, but how much more could someone expect to earn with a doctorate in nursing? We work in an industry that rewards a BSN with an extra dollar over an ADN, and a Masters can expect to get a dollar more that a BSN. Pocket change, it's insulting. Can our profession make a doctorate financially rewarding? I don't think so. The universities offering these programs will enrich themselves. It also means job security and possibly job creation for instructors, but how financially rewarding will it be for the degree seeker? Are you going to earn $200,000 or $300,000 as a "doctor of nursing"? Of course not. You'll have your fancy little title and degree and will be working in an industry that can't possibly provide you with the compensation that should accompany that many extra years in school. On the CBS news they had an employment story about what the in demand jobs are. The biggest group of these jobs were technical ADN type trades such as electricians, construction, and of course ADN nurses. These positions paid more than most 4 year degree "white collar" jobs. What's the point? One needs to be in demand to receive a higher level of compensation. It's not the degree, it's the public's demand, and the public's perception of the service that they are receiving, that create financial value and compensation for the practitioner of that trade or expertise. As the news story said - "for 50 years people have been told to go to college and get a 4 year degree" but now we have millions of people with 4 year degrees (they are a dime a dozen, what high school grads were 30-40 years ago) who have crummy "cubicle" jobs and mountains of student loans. I don't think that there is a financial "floor" that can support or justify a nation-wide requirement to get a doctorate to be a NP or CRNA. Snoopd.

The AACN can dictate the new "doctorate for entry into advanced practice" until they are blue in the face. Half the country cannot agree upon ADN or BSN as to entry into registered nursing.... So now you want to up the ante for advanced practice? There are bigger fish to fry! Sounds like another issue to muddy the already muddied waters! Also, what are we going to do with all those "Masters prepared advanced practice nurses" hmmmmmm..... Do I hear a grandfather clause, or will it be a forced return to academia to get the honored doctorate sheepskin?

FNP/DNP · Feb 4, 2005

I understand the importance of education as it relates to competency of practice and personal fulfillment, but how much more could someone expect to earn with a doctorate in nursing? We work in an industry that rewards a BSN with an extra dollar over an ADN, and a Masters can expect to get a dollar more that a BSN. Pocket change, it's insulting. Can our profession make a doctorate financially rewarding? I don't think so. The universities offering these programs will enrich themselves. It also means job security and possibly job creation for instructors, but how financially rewarding will it be for the degree seeker? Are you going to earn $200,000 or $300,000 as a "doctor of nursing"? Of course not. You'll have your fancy little title and degree and will be working in an industry that can't possibly provide you with the compensation that should accompany that many extra years in school. On the CBS news they had an employment story about what the in demand jobs are. The biggest group of these jobs were technical ADN type trades such as electricians, construction, and of course ADN nurses. These positions paid more than most 4 year degree "white collar" jobs. What's the point? One needs to be in demand to receive a higher level of compensation. It's not the degree, it's the public's demand, and the public's perception of the service that they are receiving, that create financial value and compensation for the practitioner of that trade or expertise. As the news story said - "for 50 years people have been told to go to college and get a 4 year degree" but now we have millions of people with 4 year degrees (they are a dime a dozen, what high school grads were 30-40 years ago) who have crummy "cubicle" jobs and mountains of student loans. I don't think that there is a financial "floor" that can support or justify a nation-wide requirement to get a doctorate to be a NP or CRNA. Snoopd.

I understand what you are saying. My situation is unique because I am a university professor and I need the doctorate. I don't think it should be a REQUIREMENT for nurse practitioners or CRNA's. Unfortunately though, at least in my area, they are turning out some nurse practitioners who haven't been exposed to very much in their educational experience. I think that the doctoral degree, with more clinical hours will eliminate some of this problem. I think it should be the individual's choice though, not mandated.

As far as income goes- who goes into this for the money? The PhD's I teach with have years of education and certainly aren't making the money. Its a decision to rise to the top of your profession, which isn't always about the almighty dollar. We need to get away from not getting education because it doesn't pay as well- it is really about making yourself the best you can be at what you do. I'm not asking others to do it, just explaining what went into my decision. For me it had the most to do with the desire to attain a tenure track position at a university. I don't use the title doctor in practice- it would be confusing and deceiving to the patient.

PA-C, DO · Feb 11, 2005

I believe East Tennessee State University does.
My big question with this whole debate is why. Assuming that a nurse first gets their BSN. The last 2 years in school is spent on nursing. If they go on to get their MSN that is another year and a half to two years. That is 3.5-4 years in school just for nursing. A doctor spends four years in medical school since the first 4 years is just general ed. If this requirement comes to be, APRN's would have more medical education than doctors.

I certainly hope you do not believe that any NP has more medical training than a physician. Shall we compare here?

1) All physicians have a bachelor's degree first, and at least 75% of them have these degrees in hard sciences. Most RN's take the basic A&P, chem, micro etc...and then get their BSN. As much as you don't want to hear this, those hard science courses in undergrad are way more relevant to the practice of "medicine" than are those nursing courses taught in the BSN degree.

2) Medical students go through 4 more long hard years of school, while NP students usually work and go to school at the same time. I don't know any medical students that had time to work. The average NP program has 500 hours of minimum clinical hours, while medical school has a minimum of 6000 hours in years 3 and 4 of medical school.

3) Physicians go through a minimum of 3 more years of residency. Np's do not.

I think you will see that there is no way to compare the two. Please don't say things like this as it only fuels the fire in an already touchy debate.

I do want to say though that I am proud to know some of you RN's and NP's who feel this push to DNP is just not necessary. As one of you humbly and rightly stated, a DNP will still just be a nurse. I can tell you that this issue is being discussed very cautiously among physician organizations, and presently there are dozens of states with this issue on their legislative agenda. NP's stand to alienate themselves from the physicians who currently employ them, which will not help you gain future collaborative physician agreements I can promise you. When do you think enough will be enough?

Snoopd · Feb 12, 2005

Thanks for "knowing some of us" who "are just nurses". I predict in another 5-10 years we will not be required through state statutes to legally collaborate with you on anything, so your "cautiously discussed concerns" will be so much wasted energy as the "golden age" of physician controlled monetary medicine disappears, and cost effective collaborative care given by practitioners with their own expertise replaces most of what you do and what you try to bill for. Your 2 minute assessments of patients and six figure death rate of patients do little to help you "cautiously discussed concerns" with legislators, or the public. Many studies have already proven the safety record of NP's and CRNA's - some of these studies state their safety records exceed those of the MD's and DO's. I guess that upper level chemistry class didn't do much to prevent that patient's unfortunate death. So I guess the MD's and DO's should stop belly aching about their high insurance premiums - they are there for a reason. You are in the twilight of a profession that will greatly change as society, legislators, insurance companies, and individuals realize that you offer only one facet to their health care solution. Perhaps you will play more of a role in research in the future and have even less patient contact. Ah, sort of glad to know you, see yah around, maybe? Snoopd

I certainly hope you do not believe that any NP has more medical training than a physician. Shall we compare here?
1) All physicians have a bachelor's degree first, and at least 75% of them have these degrees in hard sciences. Most RN's take the basic A&P, chem, micro etc...and then get their BSN. As much as you don't want to hear this, those hard science courses in undergrad are way more relevant to the practice of "medicine" than are those nursing courses taught in the BSN degree.
2) Medical students go through 4 more long hard years of school, while NP students usually work and go to school at the same time. I don't know any medical students that had time to work. The average NP program has 500 hours of minimum clinical hours, while medical school has a minimum of 6000 hours in years 3 and 4 of medical school.
3) Physicians go through a minimum of 3 more years of residency. Np's do not.
I think you will see that there is no way to compare the two. Please don't say things like this as it only fuels the fire in an already touchy debate.
I do want to say though that I am proud to know some of you RN's and NP's who feel this push to DNP is just not necessary. As one of you humbly and rightly stated, a DNP will still just be a nurse. I can tell you that this issue is being discussed very cautiously among physician organizations, and presently there are dozens of states with this issue on their legislative agenda. NP's stand to alienate themselves from the physicians who currently employ them, which will not help you gain future collaborative physician agreements I can promise you. When do you think enough will be enough?

FNP/DNP · Feb 12, 2005

I certainly hope you do not believe that any NP has more medical training than a physician. Shall we compare here?
1) All physicians have a bachelor's degree first, and at least 75% of them have these degrees in hard sciences. Most RN's take the basic A&P, chem, micro etc...and then get their BSN. As much as you don't want to hear this, those hard science courses in undergrad are way more relevant to the practice of "medicine" than are those nursing courses taught in the BSN degree.
2) Medical students go through 4 more long hard years of school, while NP students usually work and go to school at the same time. I don't know any medical students that had time to work. The average NP program has 500 hours of minimum clinical hours, while medical school has a minimum of 6000 hours in years 3 and 4 of medical school.
3) Physicians go through a minimum of 3 more years of residency. Np's do not.
I think you will see that there is no way to compare the two. Please don't say things like this as it only fuels the fire in an already touchy debate.
I do want to say though that I am proud to know some of you RN's and NP's who feel this push to DNP is just not necessary. As one of you humbly and rightly stated, a DNP will still just be a nurse. I can tell you that this issue is being discussed very cautiously among physician organizations, and presently there are dozens of states with this issue on their legislative agenda. NP's stand to alienate themselves from the physicians who currently employ them, which will not help you gain future collaborative physician agreements I can promise you. When do you think enough will be enough?

I should have known this reply was not coming from a nurse-glad to see that. I am not sure what place that physicans have to consider the education of advanced practice nursing. I don't see them involving themselves in the DPT programs or the Pharm D programs which are essentially the same thing. This has nothing to do with independent practice and everything to do with advancing the profession. Why don't you educate yourself a bit more about the practice doctorate before replying to this thread.