Columbia University ETP 2008

columbiaetp04 · May 17, 2008

Well lets talk about great values in nursing education. Although I now live in Portland, Oregon, I am a native New Yorker. I know people who went to SUNY nursing schools. (SUNY - State University of New York) and now have wonderful careers. Major SUNY nursing schools include Downstate in Brooklyn, SUNY Buffalo, and SUNY New Paltz.

None of these people who went to SUNY schools have had their career damaged in any way. In fact several of them have jobs which are better than mine.

Nursing is a very down to earth profession for the most part. I can't think of an employer who won't give you a shot to prove yourself, even if you went to community college. Look at the faculty roster of CUSON - at least when I was there half the faculty went to nursing schools I never heard of.

And in terms of finding a job - whoa. Getting a job as a nurse or as an NP is a joke. I never applied to job that I didn't get. It's not like you need fancy schools on your resume to get a job.

In other careers like law and business - name and reputation of your school matter a lot. Nursing just isn't like that.

And a final word. Columbia University is NOT supportive of the nursing school - and that is from Sarah Sheets Cooke. Dude - they knocked down Maxwell Hall - the original nursing building, and moved the admin. offices to one half of an old dormitory. Nursing students share the same classrooms as dental and med students- however nursing classes are scheduled around the medical school schedule.

Sarah Sheets Cooke herself stated that the Board of Trustees of Columbia wanted to prevent a PhD program from being formed because "there isn't enough knowledge in Nursing to justify a PhD."

The Dean of the Health Sciences Campus spoke at our ETP graduation, and he stated that ETP was 2 years long. (It's actually 1 year) That shows how in tune with ETP he is. The rest of his speech was comprised of him begging us to contact our representatives in Washington to support stem cell research. (Before Bush's ban on federal spending on stem cell research - Columbia was one of the biggest research labs in the world dealing with stem cells.) Totally not related to nursing.

Where does all our tuition go? I don't know. The nursing school is run like a secret parasite school of the medical school. We used the med school facilities when the med students didn't need them.

I have a suspicion our nursing tuition is at least in part, turned over to the parent university.

SteveNNP, MSN, NP · May 18, 2008

I'm not an ETP student, but a traditional MSN/NNP student who works with a LOT of ex-ETP graduates. Yes they have all amassed a lot of debt, especially if they hadn't finished paying off their original undergrad loans...However, many of them have had 60-70% of their outstanding loans paid off by committing to work for 2 years at Columbia Pres, or another hospital that is designated as serving a disproportionate number of the underserved. They also were able to see several thousands of dollars worth of Federal Perkins loans disappear because they eventually became nursing graduates.

Let's stop bashing which particular school one went to, or whether or not a degree from a particular institution gives you an advantage. I think that by this point, people are "old" enough to determine what is and isn't financially within their reach.

JMHO.

columbiaetp04 · May 18, 2008

Stevern21:

What you are refering to is the Nursing Loan Education Repayment Program, which is managed by the U.S Department of Health and Human Services. There website is: http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/nursing/loanrepay.htm

Unfortunately, this is a highly competitive program, and while it will make an award of 60% of your total loan balance, that 60% is taxed at your income tax rate. For most NPs their adjusted gross income will put them in the 25% tax bracket. So in reality you get to keep .75 X .60 = 45% of your loan balance to pay off your loans. This of course does not account for state income tax.

Now look at the number of applications vs the number accepted into the program: (Source: http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/nursing/loanrepay.htm)

FY '07: 4711 applications 315 awards. Acceptance rate: 6.6%

FY '06: 4222 applications 373 awards. Acceptance rate: 8.8%

FY '05: 4465 applications 599 awards. Acceptance rate 13.4%

Notice the disturbing trend downwards as time goes by!

NLERP awards are by no means gauranteed to you. It;s better to just not spend the money in the first place! :bluecry1:

PsychMaven · May 19, 2008

How funny this is. I must say that the inappropriateness of columbiaetep04's posts has done more than her whiny banter to convince me of Columbia's shortcomings. I really did laugh when I saw that she actually signed up for allnurses just to post that demoralizing little message...supposedly after years of nursing school. Hehe. You honestly never did the math columbiaetp04??? I suppose when I thought about it for myself I took into consideration that even subtracting $12,000 from my yearly salary as a Psych. NP would be considerably more than I would've made with other two year degrees, such as a LMHC or Social Worker, and I still would still be paying back the money that I'd spent to get those degrees...on a lesser salary. Not to mention the wider scope of practice that a NP has, blah, blah, blah. Everyone has their own justifications and I'm sorry that you did not plan ahead or have the capacity to understand what you were actually signing up for. Take it somewhere else though, WE DON'T CARE...and you so obviously do. I hope NOT to get a response from your sorry little self. Can't believe it's gone on this long really... I expected to see maybe one other message, but you honestly did take it there didn't you. :yawn:

SteveNNP, MSN, NP · May 19, 2008

Stevern21:
What you are refering to is the Nursing Loan Education Repayment Program, which is managed by the U.S Department of Health and Human Services. There website is: http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/nursing/loanrepay.htm
Unfortunately, this is a highly competitive program, and while it will make an award of 60% of your total loan balance, that 60% is taxed at your income tax rate. For most NPs their adjusted gross income will put them in the 25% tax bracket. So in reality you get to keep .75 X .60 = 45% of your loan balance to pay off your loans. This of course does not account for state income tax.
Now look at the number of applications vs the number accepted into the program: (Source: http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/nursing/loanrepay.htm)
FY '07: 4711 applications 315 awards. Acceptance rate: 6.6%
FY '06: 4222 applications 373 awards. Acceptance rate: 8.8%
FY '05: 4465 applications 599 awards. Acceptance rate 13.4%
Notice the disturbing trend downwards as time goes by!
NLERP awards are by no means gauranteed to you. It;s better to just not spend the money in the first place!

Thanks for the info. To my knowledge, of the 3 that applied, 3 got it. If they're willing to pay up to 85% of my loans (albeit taxed) for a 3 year commitment, and I'm willing to work somewhere in exchange for it, why poo-pooh it? It's something!

Maybe you can post some positive experiences about your ETP program for those who are getting ready to start this month?

smit1989 · May 19, 2008

columbiaetp04:

I am about to start the etp program next week. I want to tell you (since you seem to feel it is necessary to lecture us) that from the moment I started my applications to direct entry programs, I expected to have to take out a large amount of money in loans and have to pay them back for a long time. Despite this, I (and everyone else starting the program or a similar one) continued on with my applications, flew around for interviews, etc. etc. I chose to pursue a career as a NP realizing the cost of the education and the median salary of first year practitioners. I actually calculated what I figured to be my monthly payments after the three years of school (the last two of which I'll be working as an RN as often as possible- making a good chunk of money to support myself with) and also took into account the probable rise in the rate of my loan. DESPITE all of this, I chose to continue on with the program. Why do you think that is? It is what I want to do.

You seem to put a premium on salary. You complain about your "richer" friends. I think you chose the wrong career path. You are calling all of us idiots for not doing the research about repaying our large loans. Clearly, you were an idiot before you started the program by not doing the necessary research to figure out the financial burdens of pursuing this career (or any career in health care, really). Oscar is a weasel. I'll give you that..he's been most unhelpful so far. However, you don't need Oscar to figure out what you will be paying after you graduate. It is pretty simple math.

I appreciate you trying to give fair warning about the program, but you are being an ass. Everyone here knows what they are getting into. The thing is, even after the loan payment each month, we will be taking home a lot more than the average person, in an enjoyable and secure job. I'm sorry you can't buy your Benz or an apartment in Trump International yet. Most people with money have to work their way up over many years before they are financially comfortable. It's the way things are. I've accepted that. Now, lets get this thread back to the reason it was started: for us to HELP each other.

columbiaetp04 · May 19, 2008

I think what's happening here is that a bunch of people are being confronted with the horrible truth about their decision. Columbia ETP is a horrible decision to make, and instead of accepting it, its easier to kill the messenger.

You cannot dispute the math, you are paying $115,000 - $120,000 for a degree you could get elsewhere for $20,000, and in exchange you get no better education or enhanced career opportunities.

I don't have to argue about this. You will agree with me in 2 - 3 years when you have to come up with $1000 to $1300 a month to send to Sallie Mae.

And SteveRN21: Way to not understand sample size! Even though you know 3 people who got NLERP, the majority of people who apply for it don't get it.

columbiaetp04 · May 19, 2008

Smit1989

I never called anyone an idiot, and I don't appreciate being called an ass.

I speak from experience. Everyone I went through ETP with liked it while they were there. Then the bills came, and people applied for NLERP, and most people were rejected from NLERP.

Then frustration turns to anger. If you have a master's degree, you should be able support yourself at a middle class level. If you are paying your own way, and go through ETP, you will not be able to do so.

Congratulations on becoming a member of the working poor! :bowingpurWelcome aboard! I can use the company. At least you will have fun the next year or so. ETP classes were graded kinda of easy, so keeping your GPA up won't be hard.

fnp4me · May 19, 2008

Unfortunately I won't be joining you guys and wish you the best of luck in the ETP program. I ran into financial problems and Columbia didn't really care to retain me (they basically said "oh ok") but we already knew the administration side was kind of lacking right? I think you will all make great nurses even if you become the "working poor." Try to weed out the negative and think about the great opportunities you'll have and the people you will help. Best wishes!

smit1989 · May 19, 2008

Sorry for calling you an ass...I was kind of rambling in my post. Uncalled for on my part, even though I disagree with you. You are entitled to your opinion in this open forum. You should be able to understand the excitement and anticipation we all have to start the program. Personally, I was fully aware of the difficult financial burden the program was going to put me through. I just know it will be worth it, though. Even a close family friend of mine, who has been an RN for 30 years, has encouraged me despite knowing the financial costs of the program. She told me that an applicant from a school like Columbia SON would be seen very highly for any job position where she works, and also knows the rep of Columbia Pres and how much we will be exposed to there. There are pros and cons to most decisions in life. To me, I think my decision to start at CSON next week will be a good one. Again, sorry for the harsh words directed toward you before, columbiaetp04. Maybe you could give us some positive insight on the program itself? Advice would be much appreciated!

columbiaetp04 · May 19, 2008

Well, my experience with ETP

Socially it was about the best time of my life, parties every weekend, lots of new friends etc etc. If you don't have a good time, you have a personality disorder.

Grades were very easy. WHile there were a lot of assignments, the exams were often not that hard, with the exception of physio. and pathophys and pharm. and projects and papers were definitely graded leniently.

What no one seems to understand is just how easy it is to find a job as an rn or np. The nursing shortage is completely out of control. The job application process consists of sending out a resume, going on a few softball interviews and then collecting "yes" responses. I've had recruiters call me every day after I rejected their offer. I've been called at work by recruiters. Maybe this is just psych - but damn you are in demand.

The nursing shortage is sort of the crux of my problem with Columbia. You don't need fancy expensive schools on your resume to get a job. The employers need you way more than you need them. :wink2:

smit1989 · May 19, 2008

during the master's portion, how many hours per week did you work?