Md's Against Crna's?

TexasCCRN · Nov 18, 2005

BEA as well as on SDN and here enjoy your posts! TXANESTHETIST/TEXASCCRN

Keep it up. Folks like you are good for the profession. Power in #'s is right. Where are you in school at if you don't mind. You can PM me if you would like.

TX

TexasCCRN · Nov 18, 2005

I didn't read back to see who originally posted this bit of info, but does it suprise anyone that the med errors are lower for these QMA's. (Don't know if this statistic is right?) If all you had to do as a nurse was come in and pass meds error rates would be nill! Come on!

rn-tam2 · Nov 24, 2005

I had not heard about this position until reading these posts. It sounds like you have some pretty good training under your belt-good for you. I was curious after reading your med error statistic what your position entails exactly. Is passing meds the main thing you do or are there other jobs as well? Do you do IV and IM and PO and GT meds or just certain kinds? I would be curious also to know what type of RN staffing is prevalent in Indiana. My guess is that if the med errors are so prevalent with RN's in the hospital, the staffing is probably inadequate. As you realize RN's hold responsibility for many varied duties not just medications. If they had only one thing to do I'm sure there error rate would be very low as well. Perhaps having QMA's is helpful if the RN staffing is inadequate.

hanah7475 · Nov 24, 2005

I am an RN who works SICU, and I have had opportunity to talk with anesthetists about this subject. It seems that the resentment shared by some is that they (the MD's) feel that they went to school for a very long time and endured alot while they were in school. It irritates them that the association for CRNA's is all about equal pay for equal work, and they feel that someone whom for whatever reason did not have the disipline to go the course as they did does not deserve equal pay. It made me take a minute to listen, since I too was premed at one time, but did not have the "disipline" to stay focused on the goal. I do think that the time put into the credentials should account for more.

lmdscd · Nov 24, 2005

Well there blowing smoke everbody knows they get more money and so be it, for all ,who want to be crna's read the history there the truth lies in. Everbody have a great thankgiving,God bless you all.

kenni · Nov 26, 2005

no matter what level of education you have or what you study MDs still still see you as nothing more than a "nurse" and to them, below their level. it's sad, because we will be the ones cleaning up their messes & problems and they'd be nothing w/o us. it's because society gives them so much power they can be jerks all they want and show just how "professional" they really are.

Soleilpie · Nov 26, 2005

no matter what level of education you have or what you study MDs still still see you as nothing more than a "nurse" and to them, below their level. it's sad, because we will be the ones cleaning up their messes & problems and they'd be nothing w/o us. it's because society gives them so much power they can be jerks all they want and show just how "professional" they really are.

What's with all the generalizations? Let's get something straight here. As much as MDs are nothing without nurses, nurses are nothing without MDs. When we speak in generalizations it's hard for me to see how that can be a role model of professionalism for MDs to follow. It's ok to generalize that all MDs will become jerks and unprofessional because of the power society gives them, yet it's not ok for MDs to generalize that all nurses are just "nurses." Not allMDs have power trips or see nurses as a waste of space. On the other hand, some nurses have huge egos and make the environment a living hell for some of their peers. The good and the bad exist in every group.

sproutsfriend · Nov 27, 2005

Not allMDs have power trips or see nurses as a waste of space.

Most do even if you don't witness it in public.

michewa · Dec 3, 2005

just thought i'd add my two cents in...

as a travel nurse i've worked in several different hospitals around the country and agree that many MDAs get their panties in a bind when it comes to CRNAs.

working in recovery areas, i'll be the first to admit that--at some hospitals--there was a collective groan emitted whenever we saw a CRNA wheeling towards our station because we knew the patient would still be intubated, not even close to awake, and the neo/cardene/dopa was most likely being titrated on a roller clamp. in short...just a mess that shouldn't've been. at other hospitals, it was just the opposite--the CRNA patients were well managed regardless of their acuity and the MDAs were bringing out trainwrecks of their own making only to disappear as soon as the patient was dumped. Most of the time it was a mix of the two, and generally--at most hospitals--if the CRNA was competent, knowledgable and did a good job she/he had the respect of their peers.

case in point, while working in a surgical clinic a coupla years ago there were a couple of fresh-outta-residency MDAs freely asking 'old' CRNAs for advice and to 'take a look' at some of their cases.

While i'm not saying the anesthesia world is perfect and free from prejudices of any kind, i am saying that there are many well-respected CRNAs and many times (from what i've seen) the level of respect granted goes hand in hand with competence and mastery of the profession. it may seem unfair that CRNAs have to constantly 'prove' themselves to gain respect while the MDAs are granted it from the get-go related to the initials behind their name, but it's not a hopeless cause and a mentality that can't be changed.

so instead of griping about it and pointing fingers discussing how 'unfair' it is, start by being competent and then get involved and change the dynamics

Pete495 · Dec 12, 2005

One of my colleagues had a discussion with an MDA here at my hospital. My hospital recently became a clinical site for my srna program. The group of MDA's here is just that, a group not affiliated with the hospital. The group will not allow the students (2-4 per semester) to perform any invasive procedures (i.e. epidurals, central lines, etc), so the students attending this particular program will have to be farmed out to other hospitals even though these tasks could easily be learned at the hospital where the MDA's are allowing instruction for only general anesthesia cases. The reasons provided were lame, as one could predict. In no particular order, the reasons were: 1) someone elses mistakes requires more work for them 2) said hospital is not a teaching hospital, so patients don't expect to get treated by students 3) students would not get the ample amount of cases they would at a primary teaching facility, and students need close to 500-1000 epidurals to become proficient because that is how long it took them while in school, and they had 4 years of residency! 4) they can't supervise a room and attend to a student putting a line in at the same time (one of the lamest). 5) the current CRNA's at this hospital are not doing said procedures, and if they let the students do them, everyone (including the older CRNA's) will want to (also very lame).

It's all a bunch of political BS. If you think that the MDA does not hold any power over CRNA's, you are wrong. Typically in the OR atmosphere, it is the CRNA who has to battle for his position and expertise, not the MDA. This battle between MDA's and CRNA's will continue. That is why we have to support our organizations, and keep maintaining our proficiency to be on an equal playing field.

My personal prediction is that one of these days CRNA's will become the primary anesthesia personnel. Granted, this view is a little biased, but I think MDA's will move into other areas like critical care.

Needless to say, my admiration for the MDA's here, who I had thought were pretty agreeable to student teaching, has diminished. Afterall, they are letting us do GA, but nothing else. Unfortunately also, I have a lot of respect for this particular MDA, who is always willing to offer advice, answer questions, or teach you something you didn't know. Unfortunately, this is about as far it will go I guess.

Although there are positives to learning skills elsewhere, this just demonstrates the contraversy between the 2 professions.

David

gaspassah · Dec 12, 2005

and students need close to 500-1000 epidurals to become proficient because that is how long it took them while in school,

bull____t

d

jwk · Dec 12, 2005

One of my colleagues had a discussion with an MDA here at my hospital. My hospital recently became a clinical site for my srna program. The group of MDA's here is just that, a group not affiliated with the hospital. The group will not allow the students (2-4 per semester) to perform any invasive procedures (i.e. epidurals, central lines, etc), so the students attending this particular program will have to be farmed out to other hospitals even though these tasks could easily be learned at the hospital where the MDA's are allowing instruction for only general anesthesia cases. The reasons provided were lame, as one could predict. In no particular order, the reasons were: 1) someone elses mistakes requires more work for them 2) said hospital is not a teaching hospital, so patients don't expect to get treated by students 3) students would not get the ample amount of cases they would at a primary teaching facility, and students need close to 500-1000 epidurals to become proficient because that is how long it took them while in school, and they had 4 years of residency! 4) they can't supervise a room and attend to a student putting a line in at the same time (one of the lamest). 5) the current CRNA's at this hospital are not doing said procedures, and if they let the students do them, everyone (including the older CRNA's) will want to (also very lame).
It's all a bunch of political BS. If you think that the MDA does not hold any power over CRNA's, you are wrong. Typically in the OR atmosphere, it is the CRNA who has to battle for his position and expertise, not the MDA. This battle between MDA's and CRNA's will continue. That is why we have to support our organizations, and keep maintaining our proficiency to be on an equal playing field.
My personal prediction is that one of these days CRNA's will become the primary anesthesia personnel. Granted, this view is a little biased, but I think MDA's will move into other areas like critical care.
Needless to say, my admiration for the MDA's here, who I had thought were pretty agreeable to student teaching, has diminished. Afterall, they are letting us do GA, but nothing else. Unfortunately also, I have a lot of respect for this particular MDA, who is always willing to offer advice, answer questions, or teach you something you didn't know. Unfortunately, this is about as far it will go I guess.
Although there are positives to learning skills elsewhere, this just demonstrates the contraversy between the 2 professions.
David

So why did your CRNA school decide to have a clinical rotation here in the first place if there are so many downsides? Surely they knew this would be the case ahead of time.