Do CRNAs teach AAs in Clinical (at Emory)?

  1. I'm trying to recruit a new CRNA grad to come to our rural facility. They've gotten an offer from Emory in Atlanta, and are excited about the ability to "teach students" there. But I've heard that CRNAs are not "allowed" to teach the AA students. Is this true? I need someone on the inside of the Emory system to tell me if Nurse Anesthetists are barred (officially or unofficially) from teaching AA students in clinical. Thank you. I posted this in the OR forum as well.
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    About NGACRNA

    Joined: Oct '04; Posts: 25; Likes: 5

    16 Comments

  3. by   jwk
    Quote from NGACRNA
    I'm trying to recruit a new CRNA grad to come to our rural facility. They've gotten an offer from Emory in Atlanta, and are excited about the ability to "teach students" there. But I've heard that CRNAs are not "allowed" to teach the AA students. Is this true? I need someone on the inside of the Emory system to tell me if Nurse Anesthetists are barred (officially or unofficially) from teaching AA students in clinical. Thank you. I posted this in the OR forum as well.
    I'll ask one of the Emory guys if I get a chance, or one of them might see this post and respond.

    As far as the AA program itself, there is nothing barring AA students from doing cases with CRNA's. We have several Emory AA students at my hospital every day, and they work with AA's, CRNA's, and MD's. It just depends on what OR they are assigned to that day. I've seen CRNA students work with AA's in other hospitals as well. Never saw a problem. We all learn from each other, both before and after graduation.
  4. by   NGACRNA
    Quote from jwk
    I'll ask one of the Emory guys if I get a chance, or one of them might see this post and respond.

    As far as the AA program itself, there is nothing barring AA students from doing cases with CRNA's. We have several Emory AA students at my hospital every day, and they work with AA's, CRNA's, and MD's. It just depends on what OR they are assigned to that day. I've seen CRNA students work with AA's in other hospitals as well. Never saw a problem. We all learn from each other, both before and after graduation.
    Whoa! I'm pretty sure that CRNA students are not allowed to work with AAs, especially here in GA. Some students from MCG said that last year. Has to do with the Worthy case. I'd ask the AANA about that before letting SRNAs be staffed by AAs.
  5. by   jwk
    Quote from NGACRNA
    Whoa! I'm pretty sure that CRNA students are not allowed to work with AAs, especially here in GA. Some students from MCG said that last year. Has to do with the Worthy case. I'd ask the AANA about that before letting SRNAs be staffed by AAs.
    What is "the Worthy case"?

    As far as SRNA's working with AA's, that wasn't real recent history, but I assure you, they have worked with AA's. Maybe the AANA has a policy against it (gee, wouldn't that be a surprise ) And why would "especially here in GA" make any difference?

    Interestingly, two of the three AA programs also have CRNA programs within the same institution. Case Western has both, and the South University program is affiliated with Mercer's School of Medicine - and Mercer is starting a CRNA program. There's almost bound to be some crossover somewhere, although why that would be problematic (outside the politics) I don't know.
  6. by   CRNA, DNSc
    The Council on Accreditation Standards for Accreditation for Nurse Anesthesia Educational Programs states that SRNAs must be supervised by a CRNA or anesthesiologist in the anesthetizing locations.

    It makes no statement regarding AA but the assumption would be that supervision solely by an AA is not appropriate and could result in loss of accrediation.

    There is nothing in those standards about CRNAs teaching or supervising AA students since the is not the concern of the COA. Such an issue would be the concern of the accreditating body of the AAs.
    Last edit by CRNA, DNSc on Mar 21, '05
  7. by   jwk
    Quote from CRNA, DNSc
    The Council on Accreditation Standards for Accreditation for Nurse Anesthesia Educational Programs states that SRNAs must be supervised by a CRNA or anesthesiologist in the anesthetizing locations.

    It makes no statement regarding AA but the assumption would be that supervision solely by an AA is not appropriate and could result in loss of accrediation.

    There is nothing in those standards about CRNAs teaching or supervising AA students since the is not the concern of the COA. Such an issue would be the concern of the accreditating body of the AAs.
    You could also have the assumption that it's simply uncommon and wasn't addressed in the standard. Why (again, outside of the politics) would the assumption automatically be that this would be inappropriate?

    Also, because AA's will always have medical direction by an anesthesiologist, the SRNA would never be totally supervised by an AA. Do you think it is problematic in that light?
  8. by   CRNA, DNSc
    Quote from jwk
    You could also have the assumption that it's simply uncommon and wasn't addressed in the standard. Why (again, outside of the politics) would the assumption automatically be that this would be inappropriate?

    Also, because AA's will always have medical direction by an anesthesiologist, the SRNA would never be totally supervised by an AA. Do you think it is problematic in that light?
    Because the word "must" be supervised by a CRNA or anesthesiologist indicates that only a person with one of those two credentials meets the requirements of the standard. You are probably correct that because the AA always has medical direction by an anesthesiologist the student could be considered as being supervised by the anesthesiologist (which meets the standard). However I believe the original poster was referring to the reverse situation and asking if are CRNAs clinically teaching AA students at the institution. I certain do not know the answer to that question from either an accrediting body Standards or institution policy standpoint and would be interested to learn the answer.
  9. by   georgia_aa
    Quote from NGACRNA
    I'm trying to recruit a new CRNA grad to come to our rural facility. They've gotten an offer from Emory in Atlanta, and are excited about the ability to "teach students" there. But I've heard that CRNAs are not "allowed" to teach the AA students. Is this true? I need someone on the inside of the Emory system to tell me if Nurse Anesthetists are barred (officially or unofficially) from teaching AA students in clinical. Thank you. I posted this in the OR forum as well.
    I am an anesthetist with Emory Healthcare and I am also on the faculty of the AA program at Emory. To answer your original question - Yes, CRNAs do work with our AA students in the OR on a regular basis. I can't really speak to the question of AAs teaching SRNAs as I've never worked at a site that had CRNA students rotating through
  10. by   alansmith52
    well shiver me timbers. gasp, shock, must have clarity.. you are a CRNA teaching AA's yes????
    Quote from georgia_aa
    I am an anesthetist with Emory Healthcare and I am also on the faculty of the AA program at Emory. To answer your original question - Yes, CRNAs do work with our AA students in the OR on a regular basis. I can't really speak to the question of AAs teaching SRNAs as I've never worked at a site that had CRNA students rotating through
  11. by   An Yogi
    Quote from alansmith52
    well shiver me timbers. gasp, shock, must have clarity.. you are a CRNA teaching AA's yes????
    Alan, get a clue, georgia aa, not georgia CRNA.

    An Yogi
  12. by   deepz
    Quote from jwk
    You could also have the assumption that it's simply uncommon .........

    Since AAs are so few, their involvement with SRNAs will of course always be uncommon.

    >>From a 2002 ASA newsletter. Anesthesiologist assistants: (snip)
    > ....Currently, 525 AAs practice in Georgia and 84 practice in Ohio. No
    > other state
    > has more than eight assistants in practice, and most states have none
    > ......
    > 8 percent of Emory's graduates went on to medical school. Almost 35
    > percent of Case Western's graduates went on to medical school ......

    After 30 years of training AAs at two programs, not much to show.

    deepz
  13. by   blazeboy97
    The Georgia nurse anesthestist programs take the COA standard as "direct" supervision of the SRNA. Meaning a CRNA or MDA must be the preceptor for the student or else the school can LOSE its accreditation for the program. This was the reason we could not work with AA's or even stay in the room if a CRNA was relieved by one. Many clinical sites were not aware of this and many AA's took offense to this, which was very understandable. Alot of the AA's that I came across had very excellent skills and knowledge of anesthesia.

    As for CRNAs teaching AA's, one clinical site that I was at also was a rotation site for student AA's. The CRNAs at the site did precept AA's.
    Last edit by blazeboy97 on Mar 24, '05
  14. by   jwk
    Quote from deepz
    Since AAs are so few, their involvement with SRNAs will of course always be uncommon.

    >>From a 2002 ASA newsletter. Anesthesiologist assistants: (snip)
    > ....Currently, 525 AAs practice in Georgia and 84 practice in Ohio. No
    > other state
    > has more than eight assistants in practice, and most states have none
    > ......
    > 8 percent of Emory's graduates went on to medical school. Almost 35
    > percent of Case Western's graduates went on to medical school ......

    After 30 years of training AAs at two programs, not much to show.

    deepz
    2002 is 3 years ago - since that time there have been 3 more classes graduate from each school. And of course there is now a 3rd program getting ready to start it's second year. As more schools come on line, that number will of course increase.

    I wonder how many CRNA's graduated in the first 30 years of CRNA-dom?
    Last edit by Ted on Mar 25, '05

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