Can a surg. tech. "circulate" a case -give medications?

stevierae · Jul 6, 2004

I was commenting on another post that noted hostilities in the thread. I did not say that any one nurse was hostile. It was a general statement, not naming any person or persons. I really don't know why you took what I said personally, I didn't direct it at you.
I will not be harrassed like this by someone I didn't even speak to! You surely owe me an appology.

WTF? "Harassed?" Where the heck did THAT come from?! FYI, I was not speaking to YOU--I was addressing the topic in general--it comes up allllllll the time in this section of the bb. Just do a search and you will see what I mean.

Frankly, I don't think any operating room nurse could care less (or even know) whether their OR RN colleagues have BSNs or not. The only reason we ever even know is the newer RNs care about putting BSN on their nametags, and they make no secret about wanting to move up in management or be charge nurses--most older RNs, myself included, could care less who has what degree, as long as they can do the job--and that means scrubbing AND circulating. That means--ANY RN who works in the operating room should be able to scrub AND circulate. If they do not know how to scrub, they need to LEARN.

But, that's the subject of another thread, and one that has already been done to death.

Rn2b204 · Jul 6, 2004

Let's everyone calm down and take a breather. I am currently a nursing student and reading these post about the field of nursing that I am highly interested in makes me sick to here the nurse bashing the ST or CST. I hope I don't develop the "HIGH AND MIGHTY" attitude making others feel beneath me. What seems to be the problem no one is trying to take your job as a RN but everyone has a role and why blame, which I hear a lot of nurse say about techs they are not licensed and they won't be named in the lawsuit if something goes wrong. Why would something go wrong if you are a prudent nurse and know what your role is while you are in charge of the OR. If your hospital policy is to have a CST in the OR for whatever reason then they have to be there but to say that they can't be blamed or named if something goes wrong so you don't want them there. Seems to me that you don't want to be the only fall guy or do you think all CST are not competent enough to work in the OR? To suggest for someone to go back to school so they can be as good as you is a ignorant thing to say so when you become an RN that makes you better than the next person that is not a RN? RN's can't run the hospital by themselves nor the OR by themselves. Let's not bash each others occupation because everyone in the health care field MD, RN, LPN, TECH, HOUSEKEEPING, ETC. all have the same priority and that is the PATIENT/CLIENT.

excuse the rambling and all the typos and such :)

I am commenting to Carsha about what she posted.

DawnEyes · Jul 6, 2004

most older RNs, myself included, could care less who has what degree, as long as they can do the job--and that means scrubbing AND circulating.

I completely agree with this.

To make a reaaaally long post short...this could go back and forth forever...I also agree with those that say techs should not be *the* circulator. We have neither the training nor the licensure to do so. I will help out if/when I can, but I know what is --and what is not-- my job. I like our place in the OR. Just as there are those that would prefer not to earn a BSN from an ADN, there are those that would prefer not to be an RN at all and just continue being a good scrub. Your degree does not determine the type of person you are, good or bad/better or worse. How you treat other people certainly does.

And like it or not, I think the ST profession will be around for quite a while, due to 1) (as Mike said) the fact that we are cheaper and 2) There simply aren't enough RN's to go everywhere some would like them.

As for those that continue to bash their heads against the wall in anger when thinking about ST's...I don't know what to say or do for you except hand you a beer, watch in amusement, and *maybe* call a doc or another RN when you finally pass out from the concussion.

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Jul 6, 2004

Same poop, different thread.

This thread reminds me of work too much.

stevierae · Jul 6, 2004

Same poop, different thread.
This thread reminds me of work too much.

I just LOVE your little dog pic! :)

Is he a pug? Is he yours? He is just adorable--looks like he is laughing...

cristinak · Jul 6, 2004

I have been reading this very long thread and I would like to make a comment if I may, please no yelling, screamin, hollerin, throwing a temper trantum or anything with what i have to say!! :rotfl:

Being a CST student ( i know a cst student posting here. the nerve of me!:chuckle)

I am very interested in how my role in the OR is or will be perceived by others of the medical profession. I know that I am the low man on the totem pole in the OR and I know that just by reading these post some people do not see the need for us, but is the CSt profession as a whole really that bad of a deal, I would think that the Rn's would like having someone to help you when needed and someone to prep and clean the OR. From working in hopsitals I see the nurses running around doing 9 million other things.

Whats wrong with having someone trained to do just this and other roles in the OR, I personally would not want to give meds to a patient first of all i am not comfortable doing that unless i have training and then if there is a rn there. please be my guest. Now i would pass an RN the meds if needed or whatever they wanted me to do,

I decided to go into this profession because of what it consisted of, I get to be there in the action and learn about stuff that I didnt know about, I love to learn new things and if an RN wants to teach me stuff then great but I am not gonna take over thier job and run them out of the OR. I mean are CST that bad or a job or are the RN's just having a really bad day!!

Agian this is just my ramblings and i am sure no one cares but i thought you would like to read my opinion. Thanks for reading.

stevierae · Jul 6, 2004

I have been reading this very long thread and I would like to make a comment if I may, please no yelling, screamin, hollerin, throwing a temper trantum or anything with what i have to say!! :rotfl:
Being a CST student ( i know a cst student posting here. the nerve of me!:chuckle)
I am very interested in how my role in the OR is or will be perceived by others of the medical profession. I know that I am the low man on the totem pole in the OR and I know that just by reading these post some people do not see the need for us, but is the CSt profession as a whole really that bad of a deal, I would think that the Rn's would like having someone to help you when needed and someone to prep and clean the OR. From working in hopsitals I see the nurses running around doing 9 million other things.
Whats wrong with having someone trained to do just this and other roles in the OR, I personally would not want to give meds to a patient first of all i am not comfortable doing that unless i have training and then if there is a rn there. please be my guest. Now i would pass an RN the meds if needed or whatever they wanted me to do,
I decided to go into this profession because of what it consisted of, I get to be there in the action and learn about stuff that I didnt know about, I love to learn new things and if an RN wants to teach me stuff then great but I am not gonna take over thier job and run them out of the OR. I mean are CST that bad or a job or are the RN's just having a really bad day!!
Agian this is just my ramblings and i am sure no one cares but i thought you would like to read my opinion. Thanks for reading.

Sigh. Once again, I can only speak for myself, and I have always worked with awesome OR techs. I mean, I have worked with a few prima donna techs who can only do one specailty and that's IT, but I have worked with MORE then a few prima donna NURSES who could only do one specialty--and THEN all they could do was circulate! To me, those NURSES are a much bigger pet peeve, and I wish they'd just go into management and go to meetings all day, because as colleagues they are fairly useless--they can only do half the job.

Now--I will say it again--I think the issue on this thread is the patient ASSESSMENT aspect of circulating. There have been some folks who posted here who feel that they are qualified to do patient assessment, even though they are not operating room nurses.

I REPEAT: In an operating room, patient assessment CANNOT BE DELEGATED BY AN RN TO ANYONE BUT ANOTHER RN. No matter how highly I respect a tech's knowledge and skills, I simply cannot delegate patient assessment to him or her. Our professional governing body, AORN, says we can't. Every state nursing board says we can't. If we did so, we would lose our licenses to practice nursing.

THIS is the issue that is being discussed--nothing else. Patient assessment, and scope of practice. We are not talking here about opening laps or pouring NS. We are talking about life and death.

Again, when my tech has a free second, I want him to take a break, as he may have been scrubbed for 4 hours, and will soon be scrubbed for 4 more. At least I got to sit occasionally--he didn't. Why would ANYBODY turn down a break? Why would ANYBODY choose to stay in the room and pour fluids and open supplies when he could be kicking back in the lounge? However, if he wants to , that's fine----no one is saying that he can't or shouldn't!

That's not the aspect of circulating that is being debated here, but rather the PATIENT ASSSESSMENT role, which is an ongoing role that may change from minute to minute!! Not only must we continuously ASSESS, we must INTERVENE, and we must evaluate those interventions to see if the goals we had in mind were actually accomplished, based on our assessments and interventions.

Earlier, someone made the comment that we OR nurses had not defined "circulating."

To him, and to any readers of this thread who think that was a perfectly reasonable question: The fact that you asked a question like this is is proof of why it would be dangerous for you to circulate in the operating room.

If you must have the role DEFINED for you, well, then, you have absolutely NO business thinking you are capable of fulfilling that role. This is not meant unkindly--it is simply stating a fact. It would be dangerous patient care. It would be akin to me going in and attempting to do a craniotomy, or at least drill burr holes in a patient's skull, simply because I have seen it done thousands of times. Just seeing it done over and over doesn't make me a neurosurgeon.

cristinak · Jul 6, 2004

stevierae thanks for your response.. I am sorry if I may have touched a nerve w/ anyone as Iwasnt meaning to.. Now from what I have been told from another posting webpage. that in Ohio ( i live on the border of Oh and Ky) that the CST's do not have a specific scope of practice.. agian i repeat this is what i have been told, i have not checked this out personally. If I am asked to do something that I am not familiar with or I do not feel comfortable doing then I am not going to do it, I know that I can proabably get ripped for it later, but the patient is much more important . Now as far as patient assessment, i havent gotten that far along in my studies to know if we are even trained in that area. but I will always let the RN do her job and assist where needed. and trust me if someone says take a break then i am out the door before she/he can finish telling me!!

stevierae · Jul 7, 2004

. and trust me if someone says take a break then i am out the door before she/he can finish telling me!!

YOU GO, GIRL!!!

I used to work at a place where the techs would break between every case, and I thought that was a great practice--still do. Otherwise, they may not get a break, other then lunch. I feel like they are entitled to breaks in between cases as often as they can grab one, to make up for the days that they might be scrubbed for 8 hours at a stretch. (Same goes for RNs who were/are scrubbed all day.)

Sadly, bare bones staffing and pushing us to move faster is all but eliminating that practice in most facilities--the "desk" expects the scrub to open the case while the RN gets the patient.

My response to this practice? Hell with what the desk says--my scrub (whether my scrub is an RN or a tech) is getting a break when I say he gets a break, and if that means between every case, (which is how I like to see it done) then that's the way it will be. I am in charge of my room--not the desk. If any scrub of mine is ever "spoken" to by the desk for not being in the room opening, I tell the scrub to tell the desk to take it up with me. OR, I go to the desk and tell them if they have a problem with how I run my room to take it up with me. No one has yet.

shodobe · Jul 7, 2004

After reading all of this, I can only say that it is very old stuff and needs to be put to rest like all of the other threads concerning this or BSN vs ADN, etc.... Everybody has an opinion be it right, wrong or indifferent. I don't intentionally mean to hurt anyone's feelings or their professional demeanor. Just because I have an opinion, be it so strong, doesn't mean that I would ever ignore a person's qualities. We all have to get along with each other and work towards the patient's well being. Also, for RN2B204, yes RNs can run the OR entirley without ancillary help, though it would be tough! There isn't a state in the union that can stay open without RNs, Federal law. The hospital would have to close down if the staff consisted of anybody else than RNs. Hospital can not run with LPNs, CNAs, CSTs or whatever. RNs are the backbone of any hospital. Check it out if you don't believe me. Also you will find out that there are only policies for the use of RNs in hospitals, especially the OR. It would be interesting to see if I am wrong, but I don't think so. Mike

x3_mom · Jul 7, 2004

I am not sure why some surg techs want to Circulate. I didn't, yes, I did expand my knowledge and attended school to first assist,but I have no desire to circulate. I am perfectly capable of assisting the circulator if he/she needs it. I have been very lucky to work with RNs who trusted me and my abilities. I was trained in school re: the meds that we use on the surgical field and will help the circ by pouring these onto the sterile field, I will then set the empty bottles down so that should the circ have questions he/she could examine them, the Circ usually obtained the meds for the room from the Pixis. I have IV pushed meds at Anes request because the RN was not avail, I did this only after confirming what the med was and the dosage to be given, in these cases the anes provider would only draw up the amount of med that was to be given. If an RN does not want my help then I will take a break and let them do their job. But if the surgeon is standing there tapping his/her foot to get the case started, then I can and will (having been trained in school and checked off by the hospital) help position the patient, prep, insert foley, etc.

I will say that I now work for a surgeon and I work under his and MY licenses not the RNs. After going through all proper chanels and obtaining my privledges to assist the surgeon, I had a RN write me up for closing skin on an excision of a skin lesion that was about 1 1/2" long. I was trained and creditionaled for this and had performed the same procedure numerous times before, unfortunately this RN is one of the few who feels she has to flex her muscles now that she is in the OR (she started 1 month prior and had NO prevoius training).

I realize that I am rambling but I one last statment, to those who mistakenly believe that in Texas the Surg Tech is licensed and did so to take the RNs place, you are very wrong.

The Surgical Assistant in Texas is the Licensed person not the surg tech. Also the reason that we are pushing for the licensure of the surg tech is not to take the place of the RN, very few CSTs want to do that and those that do, in my opinion are fools. We are pushing for licensure to protect the patient, as you RNs say every patient deserves a RN, then in that respect every patient deserves a properly trained surg assist. Until the field is regulated by states then hospitals will continue to train anyone they want to scrub. Including those with NO MEDICAL TRAINING.

It is my opinion as a surgical tech / first assistant that the OR big enough for all properly trained personnel, each doing the job that they were trained to do, but able to assist others in the OR as and where needed.

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Jul 7, 2004

Just because i'm an LPN doesn't mean that i'm not worthy of being in the OR. And that's the kind of attitude i receive online and in the workplace when people find out that i'm "just" not an RN. Yet i'm not a surg tech either.