Frustrated in BSN program - page 12
by JZ_RN 12,996 Views | 128 Comments
So I am tired of getting treated like an ignorant, useless nurse because I only have an ADN and denied employment everywhere because I'm not a BSN. I get into a BSN program and start taking EXPENSIVE classes, on my own dime, and... Read More
- 0Nov 27, '12 by redhead_NURSE98!Quote from Ntheboat2I'm sorry that you read too much into comments. I intended nothing of the sort. I can assure you that if I meant anything by it other than suggesting a possible reason for the results, you'd have known it without needing 57 alternate theories of "What was she trying to say?"Oh, right.....and saying that BSN nurses make less errors because sitting at a desk isn't dangerous was said without any intent to be "demeaning," I'm sure!
Either you really don't understand research if you think that someone did a study of bedside nurses AND managers to reflect the mistakes of bedside nurses....or you were trying to say that BSN nurses don't do anything other than "sit at a desk." For the record, you'll need to direct yourself further than that single thread to find where the "demeaning" began. Here's a hint: it didn't start with me.
- 0Nov 27, '12 by MunoRNQuote from Ntheboat2Yes, UW teaches how to apply A&P and Pathophys. principles to clinical practice, just like every ASN and BSN program does, I'm still not sure If you're under the impression that ASN programs don't include this as a central basis of their education?Muno, do you actually READ what is said, or are you really that intent on saying the same things over and over?
I'm not really believing what you said in your other thread about "unnecessarily stoking the adn vs bsn debate" because it's quite obvious that's exactly what you intended to do and you're obsessed with the topic.
You say that the "top ranked program in the country" will accept a "4 page homework assignment" and considers it the same as a BSN, but forget to mention that they also REQUIRE a bachelor's degree.
Then, you say the "top ranked program in the country" doesn't have a pathophysiology class, but fail to mention that they have a class called "Clinical applications of anatomy and physiology" which IS pathophysiology!
Again, did someone force you to get a BSN?
Again, did you ever give any advice to the OP?
Again, all bachelor programs contain two distinct phases. Electives and then the major program. The Nursing program portion of a bachelor's degree (the part where the Nursing education is focused, is not seen as significantly different for an ASN program according to UW. To get a BSN, or any bachelor's degree for that matter, you need the elective portion, which is contained in any other bachelor's degree. If UW saw a significant difference in an ASN and the major program portion of a BSN, they would not accept an previous bachelor's + ASN in lieu of a BSN, that wouldn't translate, they would require a BSN (via ASN to BSN).
In other words, ASN + bachelor's credits + essay = BSN (which includes Bachelor's credits), factor that out since it's on both sides of the equation, ASN + essay = BSN (with bachelor's credits in common for both.
I chose willingly to get my BSN, and I'm glad I did, although I also realize that my education was not anywhere near as significantly different as some would think.
If I were the OP I would consider directing my time and money towards an MSN, depending on what her future goals are.Last edit by MunoRN on Nov 27, '12
- 1Nov 27, '12 by MunoRNQuote from redhead_NURSE98!In my state there are two Nursing consortiums where ASN and BSN programs have combined. If you're in a BSN program you take your OB/mother baby class at the community college campus, and ASN students can take the same class at the University, they're all interchangeable. So there are classes where BSN students sit next to ASN students in the same class, I'm a little skeptical 2 students in the same class are getting significantly different educations.Maybe because those who are calling their BSNs useless actually had an ADN first...and certain people who like to throw insults at ADN programs have never set foot into an ADN classroom?
- 1Nov 27, '12 by Anoetos"set foot in an ADN classroom"?
I'm sorry, this makes no sense. BSNs do sit in ADN classrooms inasmuch as their training includes everything ADNs learn.
Much of the rancor coming from ADNs on the subject seems to stem from a general inability to see the "usefulness" of the additional classes (whatever they may be) BSNs have to take. Their feeling seems to be that their training has been adequate, why undergo more schooling? This can't really be argued against.
But a couple facts remain: like it or not, the profession is progressing, more and more hospitals are requiring a BSN for entry level nursing, additionally, other countries have standardized this (e.g. the UK and Canada, unless I am mistaken).
Finally, nursing is important enough to warrant at the minimum a bachelor degree, which is the basic undergraduate preparation in any professional discipline. Only nursing lags here. This does not mean that ADNs are inferior, the variety of nursing education in the US indicates that ADNs and BSNs all come to the profession with different levels of preparation, more often though, the differences have to do with the nurses themselves, I think.
I've been a bad boy in this conversation, I'll admit that and I am sorry for it, but most of the anguished insults seem to come from the ADNs. I have yet to see a thread started by a BSN telling ADNs that they're inferior or inadequate, nor have I seen BSNs espouse this view in threads. What I have seen is numerous threads either started by ADNs or ones in which ADNs weep and moan about how they're feeling pressured and darn it, they don't want to do what they don't want to do and it's all so stupid anyway. They sound like my teen age daughter.
Anyway, I apologize for my own part in this drama where I have been either dismissive or mean.
- 2Nov 27, '12 by BostonTerrierLoverRNI don't think one ADN can speak for the entire ADN population any more than one BSN can speak for for the entire population of BSNs.
I really hate generalizations made by educated people. There are people from each group with diverse feelings towards "higher education."
I didn't doubt the importance of a BSN or I wouldn't have wanted one. I wish people would speak for themselves, and not assume they can stick a whole group on one idea.
I have been through both programs, to get both degrees, still I can only speak for my views.
- 0Nov 27, '12 by redhead_NURSE98!Quote from AnoetosApologies for failing to read the rest of your post."set foot in an ADN classroom"?
I'm sorry, this makes no sense. BSNs do sit in ADN classrooms inasmuch as their training includes everything ADNs learn.
My point is that unless one speaks from experience maybe one should keep one's mouth shut? If a BSN sits in an ADN classroom figuratively speaking, then there is no difference in the core curriculum in your mind, is there? If it's really that simple, then there is no debate.
Each program serves its purpose and is useful in a way for its users. Each program has its benefits and detriments which are up to the student to weigh. Each SCHOOL has its descriptions, clinical hours etc. set forth in its catalog, which is up to the students to READ! I'm willing to bet if the student cares that much they could get the course syllabi so they know they are getting a quality education.
Truth be told, after the first job no one gives a rat's booty where you went to school, how many clinical hours you had or what your grades are. So some hospitals are going to BSN only. It won't last. And those hospitals may find themselves in need of nurses that will sit still for more than a year at a time, if you believe the reports of some here who say that these folks are sailing through getting their minimum years of ICU experience or what have you before going to NP school.
It's all a cycle.
For every "whiny ADN post" I'll show you a whiny person complaining about their 50K in loans from their bachelors program. You can go back and forth on that all day, but why bother? Have we not already established that venting posts are acceptable in this forum?
- 0Nov 28, '12 by MunoRNQuote from subeeMy original Bachelor's degree was a Bachelor's of Science in Biology. Had I just done an ASN, I would not have had to take any additional Liberal arts classes compared with what I took for my BS in Biology; English, communications, psychology are all required for any ASN program.A bachelor's degree implies a liberal education- it's not an supposed to be an advanced trade school degree. If exposure to the liberal arts is a waste of time, then maybe physicians should just go from junior college right into med school. After all, what do they need history, literature or philosophy for if they just going to be a doctor? Actually why require a degree for anyone? An astrophysicist can just take some physic and astronomy courses at a junior college and then learn the rest on the job. Learning another discipline requires brainwork. What if all practitioners of the medical arts didn't have to take any of these pesky liberal arts courses? Your neurosurgeon could be up and running in 7 or 8 years out of highschool without any loans to pay!
Quote from subeeStatistics is a required part of all ASN programs in my state.Why even bother to work in a "profession" based on science when you haven't had a statistics course to evaluate whether a study is useful or useless?
Quote from subeeThis is what bugs me, it's amazing how little we understand about our own educational system. Yet that doesn't slow us down from making blind assumptions based on information gathered from who-knows-where.If ADN students aren't learning ANYTHING in BSN program then either; 1. They are happy to remain limited or 2. The college has dumbed down everthing to accomodate a flux of paying students who have no business in university. I even read a prevous post on the thread which mentioned the "dumming" down of college courses. Ironic error in spelling.
A large number of ASN students already have a bachelor's degree (2 programs in my state require one just to apply to an ASN program), so it's not really accurate to claim they don't belong in a University.
Now that we're 40 years into the ANA's push for BSN's, as well as the popularity of RN-BSN programs, ASN program curriculum has become increasingly standardized to BSN curriculum, which would explain why ASN graduates aren't seeing too much of a difference when they take an ASN to BSN program.
- 0Nov 28, '12 by MunoRNThere are no doubt advantages to making a BSN the level of entry for Nursing, so the next step is to look at our options. We can't expand BSN programs any further than they already are due to limited clinical placement options. Doubling the cohort size in BSN programs would significantly worsen the quality of a BSN education. So the other option is to turn existing ASN programs into BSN programs, which has largely already been by turning ASN programs into what are essentially franchises of BSN programs, with matriculation plans in place for transitioning ASN graduates to BSN degrees. Basically, this spreads BSN curriculum over a larger area without suffocating the already overburdened BSN clinical placement opportunity. Personally, I don't really see a better way of doing it.
- 0Nov 28, '12 by nursel56 GuideSomewhat off-topic aside . . .the AACN seems to be advocating for a similar approach with respect to existing MSN programs transitioning to DNP as stated in this excerpt from "DNP Essentials" based on the findings of a Task Force that studied the issue for two years. If they've done the same in-depth review with the ADN curriculum I've not been able to find it.
This review indicated that many programs already have expanded significantly in response to the above concerns, creating curricula that exceed the usual credit load and duration for a typical master’s degree. The expansion of credit requirements in these programs beyond the norm for a master’s degree raises additional concerns that professional nurse graduates are not receiving the appropriate degree for a very complex and demanding academic experience. Many of these programs, in reality, require a program of study closer to the curricular expectations for other professional doctoral programs rather than for master’s level study.
- 4Nov 28, '12 by woohOne good reason to go to BSN only: Longer time to create a nurse means fewer new grads being churned out means hospitals/etc. have to actually VALUE the nurses in existence rather than replacing them with cheap and easy to find new grads.
Sure, hospitals are being "choosy" now. But they like that they can say "BSN only" while they know the market is being flooded with new grads every 2 years. Keeps wages low. Keeps respect low. (Not because ADNs aren't "respectable" but because they don't have to give respect to people that are easily replaceable.) If we really gave them what they claim they "want" which is all BSN, they'd have to actually start paying for nurses instead of paying bare minimum and replacing us every two years with someone newer and stupider and willing to put up with whatever BS they want to throw at us.
We have no bargaining power. Don't want to work a ridiculous schedule? There's a bright shiny new grad willing to take anything, willing to do anything, and heck, even Mary Martyr experienced nurses here are advocating for working off the clock. Because it's "for the patients." So is housekeeping, but do you see the housekeepers restocking their carts 15 minutes before they clock in? For a bunch of educated people, whatever education level that may be, nurses are big bunch of IDIOTS. We're too busy worrying about hurting each other's feelings: Lateral violence whining. Eating our young whining. ADN/BSN/LPN whining. Maybe if everyone would grow the * up and quit whining about their coworkers we could at least get as much respect as the housekeeping staff, who isn't expected to work off the clock.
This is all ridiculous. All of it. Don't want a BSN? Don't get one. But as long as nurses are being churned out on a giant assembly line like we are right now, employers get to be choosy. And ALL of us are paying the price for that.