BSN does not mean better... Sometimes education is overrated!

Nursing Students ADN/BSN

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okay so here's my point.

i have been reading several things on here about "i have my bsn so therefore i should make more money..blah, blah, blah" frankly i am sick of hearing it. let me give you a little background on me before i finish what i started.

i started out as an stna (cna) about 8 years ago. then i went and got my lpn. now i am getting my adn and i will graduate in may 2008. once i get my adn i am planning on going back and getting my bsn.

now let me say that i have met many bsn nurses who could not even figure out how to empty a foley drainage bag. they deemed that as "aide work". they also thought that they were better than us, and that we should bow down to them. also, i have met many bsn nurses who were so knowledgeable about everything and were excellent nurses. bedside manner was fantastic.

in general..i have met good nurses and bad nurses. that includes lpn's, bsn's and adn's. just because you have more education does not mean that you are better and should be paid more. honestly, bsn is a choice. it is a choice that i want to make. why would an employer pay a bsn all this money when they could pay an adn or a diploma rn less money for the same job? therefore...around the same pay for both. i just get sick and tired of people saying...i am better than you because i went to school for one year longer or two years or whatever. education is very important .....but its not everything when it comes to this debate. i met this master's degree nurse and she was sooooo stupid. i couldn't believe that she managed to get her degree. i knew this lpn who was smarter than any nurse i have ever met....rn's included. and vice versa.

my point: what makes a good nurse is personality, common sense and what you do with the knowledge that you possess.:balloons:

Specializes in LTC, Rehab, Hospice and Telemetry.

The whole ADN vs BSN is one of my pet peeves. What I rarely read about is how our profession totally ignores any degree but the BSN or MSN. I have a BA and MA. I only had to take selected courses to earn a teaching certificate. I didn't have to get a BS in Education.

When I became an RN, I got an ASN. The hospital where I worked recognized BSNs but not my MA. To them and the Nursing profession, I just have the ASN.

If the BSN represents a more well rounded, more complete education, it is hard for me to understand how that doesn't apply to a person with more than four years of college before three years of nursing school.

Don't get me wrong now. I believe in the value of education. I frequently advise students, all things being equal, to go for the BSN. I recommend the value of a Bachelor's degree and the increased opportunities in four years vs the minimum of three for ADN.

However, all things are usually NOT equal. For the time being at least, our profession is fortunate to have multiple paths to success. We need all the good minds and hearts we can get. What they can do is more important than where they come from.

Historically, ADN graduates do have stronger clinical skills because they complete more clinical hours than most BSN students, and the ADN programs are more focused on clinical skills and critical thinking skills because the basis of the ADN degree is vocational training.

And historically, BSN graduates do have stronger managerial skills because of their extensive training in ethics and management. Also, policy and procedure development is greatly helped by the BSN's stronger roots in theory and scientific research.

But there is one thing that both ADN and BSN graduates both have in common. An elitist attitude- that their group or type of nurse is better than the other- will not help either type of graduate. And no matter which side you are on, you are not the better nurse if you cannot collaborate with your peers and treat them with respect and dignity. Both types of graduates bring different skills to the table, and these need to be appreciated. In a cohort of new grad nurses, if you are having difficulty with an IV stick or say a very tricky foley insertion (I've seen some that take 5 experienced nurses to accomplish), you may want to ask an ADN grad. But if you see something that is truly not working on your unit and want to change that, seek out the help of a BSN grad to gather evidenced based research that supports the change that you wish to see happen.

Now here's where it the ADN/BSN debate becomes more than just black and white: About two thirds of my graduating nursing class have completed bachelor's degrees in a different field before we completed our nursing degrees. Many of us have completed at least a bachelor's degree, if not a masters, in an area such as psychology, social work, or public health. Many of us also plan to go on for our Masters in Nursing and often for our Nurse Practitioner licenses. Do these previous degrees make this rather large group of ADN graduates more qualified for specific types of nursing positions?

The BSN program I was in had checkoffs throughout the first semester...then each semester after that, you had to pass another checkoff to begin that semester. Also, we were the first group to go through a new BSN curriculum, and we had to do a 124 hour preceptorship our final semester. It was extremely helpful working those full 12 hour shifts with an experienced nurse. It really gave us the opportunity to do soooo many things/skills.

In my ADN program, we completed at least 150-200 clinical hours at a wide variety of hospitals per semester for 4 semesters. This is not counting our time in the nursing labs at school, which was probably another 25-50 hours per semester, -this also technically counts toward clinical time.

Historically, ADN graduates do have stronger clinical skills because they complete more clinical hours than most BSN students, and the ADN programs are more focused on clinical skills and critical thinking skills because the basis of the ADN degree is vocational training.

And historically, BSN graduates do have stronger managerial skills because of their extensive training in ethics and management. Also, policy and procedure development is greatly helped by the BSN's stronger roots in theory and scientific research.

But there is one thing that both ADN and BSN graduates both have in common. An elitist attitude- that their group or type of nurse is better than the other- will not help either type of graduate. And no matter which side you are on, you are not the better nurse if you cannot collaborate with your peers and treat them with respect and dignity. Both types of graduates bring different skills to the table, and these need to be appreciated. In a cohort of new grad nurses, if you are having difficulty with an IV stick or say a very tricky foley insertion (I've seen some that take 5 experienced nurses to accomplish), you may want to ask an ADN grad. But if you see something that is truly not working on your unit and want to change that, seek out the help of a BSN grad to gather evidenced based research that supports the change that you wish to see happen.

Now here's where it the ADN/BSN debate becomes more than just black and white: About two thirds of my graduating nursing class have completed bachelor's degrees in a different field before we completed our nursing degrees. Many of us have completed at least a bachelor's degree, if not a masters, in an area such as psychology, social work, or public health. Many of us also plan to go on for our Masters in Nursing and often for our Nurse Practitioner licenses. Do these previous degrees make this rather large group of ADN graduates more qualified for specific types of nursing positions?

I would say yes. I'm not starting nursing school until this Fall, but if I was a nurse hiring manager, and I had, let's say, a Psych nursing job available for a new grad and had the following candidates:

1. A BSN

2. A ADN

3. A ADN w/ a BS in Psychology.

#3 would get the job. I can easily see how people with Social Work degrees in addition to nursing degrees would be much better as case managers, and in other positions in the hospital.

I don't think that formally, on paper, in a job description, you'll see where it matters, but I would easily bet that in actual hiring practice, it does.

My sister has a degree in Sociology is in nursing school, and has been checking around with nurse recruiters to see if she needed to get her BSN. She has been told that she is welcome to apply for BSN-preferred positions, because they take a degree in a human-services field into consideration when hiring.

Specializes in acute care.

I never said that it would be a pointless requirement, I just don't think it should be a requirement at all. If I want to pursue a nursing degree, I shouldn't be required to spend time being an aide first, then be able to apply to nursing school. It's already frustrating that folks have to spend up to 2 years finishing pre reqs before they can even apply to NS, but I should be required to more time being an aide, too...I plan to start having children with the next few years and want my degree as fast as possible. This requirement would have only prolonged my plans. FYI: It was actually my Customer Service experience that helped me be more comfortable with dealing with different patients than a lot of the other students in my CNA class.... take care!

QUOTE=jjjoy;2250748]Yes, some people don't need the experience and they do just fine. The fact that some people do fine without being a aide first doesn't automatically mean that it would be a pointless requirement. It could still be a useful requirement if it were determined to help produce better nurses as a group (versus each individual nurse who has their own strengths and weaknesses). It could be a good mechanism to ensure that nursing students have a good idea of what they're getting into and that they already have had successful experience working with patients. It could also help keep a steady stream of motivated aides coming through health facilties.

It's already frustrating that folks have to spend up to 2 years finishing pre reqs before they can even apply to NS, but I should be required to more time being an aide, too...I plan to start having children with the next few years and want my degree as fast as possible. This requirement would have only prolonged my plans.

It would be even more convenient if they'd only require 1 year of classes to become an RN and dropped all of those silly pre-reqs in anatomy and microbiology and the like; then you could get the degree even faster. I'm being sarcastic there; but clearly the curriculum and pre-reqs aren't selected with how to best accomodate any one individual. It's not fair that most nursing schools are impacted and pre-reqs are hard to get into. It shouldn't be that way and I hope schools can turn that around, but that's a separate issue in regard to whether or not to require at least the completion of a CNA course (6 weeks most places) to apply to nursing school.

Specializes in acute care.

You cannot compare the requirement of taking "silly" pre reqs and a CNA course..I need to take the pre reqs...it's a choice for me to take a CNA class...my RN friend who grauduated from the school I am attending learned all the skills I learned in my CNA class within her first semester of the nursing sequence....I don't agree with making it a requirement for me to spend $300+ on a CNA course when I'm going to learn the SAME skills (or a modified version of them) in my first semester of NS! I agree to disagree with you.

It would be even more convenient if they'd only require 1 year of classes to become an RN and dropped all of those silly pre-reqs in anatomy and microbiology and the like; then you could get the degree even faster. I'm being sarcastic there; but clearly the curriculum and pre-reqs aren't selected with how to best accomodate any one individual. It's not fair that most nursing schools are impacted and pre-reqs are hard to get into. It shouldn't be that way and I hope schools can turn that around, but that's a separate issue in regard to whether or not to require at least the completion of a CNA course (6 weeks most places) to apply to nursing school.

Some people somewhere chose the pre-requisites for nursing school. They could choose to cut certain requirements and incorporate the information into the nursing program - so that instead of having 1-2 years of pre-reqs, the nursing program could just be longer altogether. They could also choose to cut certain elements out of the program and require them as pre-reqs. If a nursing program required CNA certification prior to application then it could quickly move on past that part of nursing training to more the more advanced training licensed nurses need. And the cost of CNA training is a separate (though relevant) issue from whether or not it might be useful to make it pre-req instead of incorporating into the nursing program.

I can agree to disagree on whether or not CNA experience or training would be a useful pre-req. I just wanted to differentiate between that as a general idea as opposed to how it would impact your current plan.

Specializes in acute care.

Ah!! See, if the requirement were set up as described below, I certainly would not be opposed to it...take care!

They could also choose to cut certain elements out of the program and require them as pre-reqs. If a nursing program required CNA certification prior to application then it could quickly move on past that part of nursing training to more the more advanced training licensed nurses need.

Specializes in ICU, Telemetry, Neuro, Ortho, Med/Surg.
In my ADN program, we completed at least 150-200 clinical hours at a wide variety of hospitals per semester for 4 semesters. This is not counting our time in the nursing labs at school, which was probably another 25-50 hours per semester, -this also technically counts toward clinical time.

We had clinicals thoughout all of our semesters as well.

I think the ADN and BSN programs both have many clinical hrs. I always thought the ADN programs had a good bit more practice in clinical skills (and I still think they do), while the BSNs spent more time in the classroom learning theory. Luckily, my BSN program started a new curriculum and added more clinical hrs, such as our preceptorship at the end of the program.

We had clinicals thoughout all of our semesters as well.

I think the ADN and BSN programs both have many clinical hrs. I always thought the ADN programs had a good bit more practice in clinical skills (and I still think they do), while the BSNs spent more time in the classroom learning theory. Luckily, my BSN program started a new curriculum and added more clinical hrs, such as our preceptorship at the end of the program.

I know that all nursing programs aren't created equal. However, the bsn encompasses pathophysiology and research. Keep in mind the importance of theory. Skills will be mastered by practice...on the job. As you explore different roles in nursing your theory will make sense and it will never leave your thoughts. As for your skills.....don't use it and you lose it.

Specializes in Critical care/ER, SRNA.

Just wanted to throw this out there. In most other professions, advance degrees are rewarded with more money. As nurses we have long been fighting to be treated as professionals. So why is it such a bad thing that those with more education get paid more?

It' would never go over in the business world that someone with an associate's degree makes the same as someone with a bachelor's degree. ADN nurses and BSN nurses of course do the same job when it comes to bedside nursing. It doesn't mean one is any better than the other. We want to be treated like professionals, so we should act like professionals!!

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