Future DNP program admission requirements

elkpark · Jun 8, 2010

Many (most?) of the current DNP programs are specifically designed/intended for existing advanced practice nurses to return to school to "upgrade" to a DNP -- comparable to the BSN completion programs for diploma and ADN grads. There is also a growing number of DNP programs for BSN grads to prepare them "from scratch" as advanced practice nurses. The long-range plan (if the DNP becomes mandatory for advanced practice, which is a big "if" -- at this point, that is still just a proposal by a few academic nursing organizations, nothing official) is to eventually eliminate the MSN-level advanced practice programs, and everyone would just go directly into a DNP program. No one is expecting "new" people to complete a Master's and then a DNP in order to go into an advanced practice role.

llg, PhD, RN · Jun 8, 2010

I agree with what elkpark said above. However, you have to remember that those direct BSN-DNP programs will be longer (and more expensive) than the current MSN-DNP programs because they will have to incorporate the advanced clinical role preparation.

Whether that content is covered in an MSN program or as part of a longer DNP program ... it will still need to be covered. Getting a DNP will require a similar length of schooling as other practice doctoral level programs -- at least 3 or 4 years of study beyond the BSN. (With most PhD programs requiring a similar number of courses plus a dissertation.) The nursing profession is staying within the mainstream societal standards as they develop these programs.

HeartsOpenWide, RN · Jun 8, 2010

It was my understanding that the DNP is just talk right now and not official. Back in July of 08 this is the reply I got from UCSF's CNM program when I asked about the DNP requirement:

As of now, we are not expecting to move to a DNP program. Because currently there are no licensing boards that require the DNP for practice, all master's prepared CNMs will be able to be licensed for the foreseeable future. I believe that CNMs will be "grandmothered" in if the DNP were ever required for licensure, but I do think it's far away at this point.

elkpark · Jun 8, 2010

It was my understanding that the DNP is just talk right now and not official.

That is correct (and that's why I qualified my response with the comment about this being "a big 'if'"). The AACN is the organization pushing this the hardest, and the most recent update on their website says that 73% of their member universities are currently transitioning or planning to transition their advanced practice MSN programs to DNPs -- that means 28% of the AACN members organizations with advanced practice programs currently have no plans to make the switch. And that's just the educational piece -- the AACN has nothing at all to say about licensure or certification, and there's no indication that the organizations that do are leaping onto this particular bandwagon. The idea is still a v. long way from being official or mandatory.

UVA Grad Nursing · Jun 8, 2010

The DNP is an "aspirational goal". The only professional organization that has embraced the DNP is the nurse anesthetists. They have set 2022 as the last date that Masters-prepared anesthetists will be able to sit for CRNA certification.

The national NP, CNS, and CMN organizations (and the 50 state boards of nursing) are not fully onboard with the DNP.

AbeFrohman, BSN, RN · Jun 10, 2010

2025 is our goal, and nothing is set in stone.

meadowsong, ASN, RN · Jun 10, 2010

I'm still in the process of obtaining my RN, but I have a very long term goal of becoming a midwife. Since I'm in MN, I would prefer to go with a MN school and have been looking at the U of MN website. They have their programs (from what I can tell) set up as doctorate levels all ready. It looks like they have options for both a BSN and MSN. I'm not sure how it compares to other schools when it comes to length or money though. My only advice is to start researching it now. At least that is my plan :)

galdena · Jun 15, 2010

there are two types of dnp programs: the 2 yr bridging post-msn np programs and the 4 yr post-bsn np programs. one of the main reasons the dnp was proposed in the first place was that most msn programs now exceed 60 credits and require at least three years to complete. as the np role has expanded and patient problems and health care have become more complex, the programs' curricula have also had to expand to incorporate current practice guidelines and technology. even with additional course contents and added credits, many nps continue to feel that they haven't received all the training necessary to prepare them for clinical practice following graduation. adding an additional 1-2 years to the current two year master's-level np programs would allow an increase in content to be included, with the final year geared towards a clinical residency for a higher level of competency and confidence. these new programs will equal approximately 90 units which equals the number of credits of other professional doctoral programs

coffee and toast · Jun 15, 2010

Thank you all for the thoughtful replies. From prospective NP's perspective, I can see some pros and cons to a potential DNP program. As galdena mentioned the complexity and scope of today's NP role may necessitate further education - this makes sense to me, and I do welcome that looking down the road to my career. That said, one of the reasons I want to become an NP is that I've met, used for my own health care, and admired so many current knowledgeable, VERY GOOD, very kind NPs. They weren't DNPs, and they were up to date and competent in modern medicine (that I could tell). On one hand, if they had completed one of the 'meaty' MSNs, maybe they were at an educational near-equivalent of the DNP, but on the other hand, perhaps the combination of a strong MSN and experience at clinical sites is fine preparation for the career. The final clinical year of an NP program would give a nice, regulated experiential component of the program - but whether this is just 'educationalizing' an already exisiting 'internship' or 'first job' experience, I do not know.

Overall, your comments have made me see that the transition is still very hypothetical, which left me more room to think about the DNP versus MSN, whereas before, when some readings I had done made it seem like an imminent change, I was thinking more about how to personally navigate through the changing requirements.

What I still do fear though, is a growing and growing educational expense (even a four year/90 credit program will cost much more than the longer MSN programs out there). While yes, education is priceless, loans can be a heavy burden - especially if they are not well justified. There is also the delay of income generation to worry about. I'd hate to see the transition to DNP just to follow suit of the other health professions (e.g. DPT) . If the MSN serves patients, and serves nurses, then I think it is a fine program, especially if some stages can be done part time while working. But unfortunately, at my early early stage in this I have no way to really know!

It is very interesting to be starting this path and not knowing what I have to plan for and do to become an NP eventually ~ part of me thinks that I should do the RN, and spend a good while at that level before pursuing an advanced degree. Initially I had planned to work for approx. 1 year as an RN and then pursue an MSN --- I worry about delaying the advanced degree because...well because I just keep getting older each year no matter what I do!!

Would you all see benefit in delaying the advanced degree (whatever it is at the time, for NP practice)? or would you suggest an interested student keep purshing forth through the education component as fast (within reason) as possible?

galdena · Jun 15, 2010

I have been in nursing in some capacity for over 40 yrs-- first as a CNA x 10 yrs, a LVN/LPN x 9 yrs, got my ADN, then my BSN, my MSN as a NP when I was 40, and my DNP in 2008 at age 54 and can honestly say that many of my clinical decisions today are based on past situations and experiences that I came into contact along the way as a nurse. I am a strong believer that prior to entering a NP program, one should have a minimum of 2 yrs nursing experience in a clinical setting as it not only exposes one to patients and the medical setting, but also teaches time management skills, interpersonal relationships, critical thinking skills, and exposure to medicine, medications, diagnositc tests, etc-- all of which are needed for a much more confident and competent NP and gives one a distinct advantage while in a NP program. In my NP program, I did my clincial rotations with students from the PA program. ONe middle-aged PA student was having a particularly hard time with EVERYTHING and asked why it seemed so easy for me. I informed her that I had been a nurse "forever" and she replied "Oh, that's it then-- I worked at the post office". Plus, I think it's very hard to call yourself an Advanced Practice Nurse as a NP if you've never actually worked as a "basic" level nurse. Personally, I absolutely hate those high money making 3 yr MSN programs that takes someone with a BS/BA degree in any subject (say, computer sciences) and teaches them everything they need to know about nuring to pass their NCLEX by the end of the first year and then rushes them through the last 2 yrs so they come out with a MSN. I've precepted these students and they know NOTHING about what nursing is about-- nor do they generally care.... they have their MSN and they're out in the world practicing as an Advanced Practice Nurse. Also, on a more personal note, I went back and got my DNP because I was worried about job security down the line. Whether or not the reality of DNPs becoming the entry level for NPs, each year more and more schools will be closing their MSN programs and converting to DNP programs, and more and more NP students will see the handwriting on the wall and turn to the 4 yr degree. leading to more and more DNPs out in the market place. I never want to lose a job to someone simply because they may have a doctorate degree and, despite my many yrs of experience, I don't. There is also the potential for Medicare (and then other insurances will surely follow) someday deciding that they will ONLY reimburse doctoral-prepared NPs the same as they did in the late 80s-early 90s when they declared they would ONLY reimburse MSN-prepared NPS, sending thousands of certificate-prepared NPs back to school to obtain their MSN. I know many, many, many experienced NPS (myself included) who swore at the beginning they would NEVER fall for this DNP thing.... but, one by one, more and more are seeing the reality of the future of the NP profession and going back to school. But each person has to decide for themselves-- and the main thing to think about is how long you have in the work force. If you are in your mid to late 50s and don't forsee yourself working many more years before you retire, going for a DNP would be a huge waste of time and money. But for those younger nurses cnsidering becoming NPs or are already NPs, they might want to consider it for future job security.

greatgirl123 · Jun 15, 2010

It was my understanding that the DNP is just talk right now and not official. Back in July of 08 this is the reply I got from UCSF's CNM program when I asked about the DNP requirement:

I asked a professor into the MSN FNP program the same question about a week ago... and this is what she email me.

"We do not have a DNP and will not have one as the charter of the college

would have to change. I am not that hip on it anyway. Lots of propaganda

re the degree. the 2015 thing is only a recommendation, as the NYS would

have to mandate it as entry into practice and they will not do so for a

long long time".

so, this email is from the director of the nursing program in the school to which I am applying to...

I am considering DNP in the future.. but I'm focusing on the MSN for now...

In 2015, there will even more DNP programs, and it probably be shorter time frame to finish it... rather than now..lol