OR Nurses Giving Conscious Sedation--WHY SHOULD WE?

Specialties Operating Room

Published

Frankly, I have never understood why some operating room nurses feel honored to be able to sit up at the head of the bed and administer conscious sedation, especially during elective cosmetic surgery procedures (in which the patient could afford the services of a CRNA or anesthesiologist.)

I think it is a power trip for them--makes them feel oh-so-important.

OK, here come the flames from those who consider it "an expansion of their role as a perioperative nurse" and apparently aren't concerned about not being trained--or compensated--in the same way a CRNA or anesthesiologist would be for doing the same thing.

I truly believe that this is a classic example of the saying, "A little knowledge can be dangerous."

Yes, I am ACLS certified--I am good at starting IVs--I know the conscious sedation drugs and the drugs to reverse them---and hey, I have even had to do a stab trach or two with a jelco to ensure an adequate airway and prevent imminent death----but that was as a Vietnam era corpsman, when there was no other option.

There was no MD or CRNA to call on--as an independent duy corpsman, I was it. Oh, and the situation was trauma--NOT elective cosmetic surgery.

Today, there are plenty of other options--those include staff CRNAs and anesthesiologists who are PAID for their skills at airway management and conscious sedation (as well as far more complicated anesthesia situations.)

Yes, times have indeed changed. Personally, I do not feel they pay me enough to take on this role and the extra responsibility it entails--especially when CRNAs or anesthesiologists are sitting around with nothing to do--simply because hospital management, or cosmetic surgery patients who are paying out of pocket, do not want to reimburse those people (or bill the insurance) accordingly.

This often happens in elective cosmetic surgery cases where insurance ISN'T picking up the tab. Rather than pay the person who is trained--and welll compensated--to do this job--we are supposed to do it.

Why are we allowing ourselves to be exploited as a source of cheap labor?

I actually worked registry a few times at a hospital where, in my opinion, the "queen bee" RNs who fought for the chance to give conscious sedation were waayyyyyyyy over their heads--they were allowed by certain plastic surgeons to simply give drugs in the increments they (the nurses) saw fit--usually Fentanyl and Versed--and more than once they got into trouble and had to slip in an oral airway, bag the patient, and reverse the Versed with Romazicon or the Fentanyl with Narcan to end up with (eventually!) a spontaneously breathing patient.

Forget about having anesthesia nearby to come bail them out--they had long since gone home--none covering OB, either, as this small hospital had no OB unit.

I expressed my concern to their supervisor about this--with some trepidation--I knew it would not be well received since I was not staff. Her answer? "We do it all the time--and anyway, if they run into trouble, they can call the ER doctor."

Right. Like he is going to drop whatever he is doing (perhaps handling his own code!) and rush right over to bail someone out of a situation they should not have been doing in the first place.

(When I voiced THIS, I was given a blank and hostile stare--and, not called to work there again, surprise--as if I would have wanted to return to this hotbed of sentinel events in the making.)

What do the rest of you think? Why are nurses taking on this role? If you have no other objection, just consider this one---they just do not pay us enough to do it.

I work in oral surgery with non intubated patients. The oral surgeons I work with are anesthesia providers and what do you think they think about what the makers of Diprivan, the ASA or the AANA are saying? They may as well tell them to smoke their position statement because oral surgeons across the US are still doing surgery and using propofol every single day with excellent patient outcomes.

We use Versed and Fentanyl for most procedures and occasionally Propofol

if needed. With the proper training and experience and a nurse practice act that allows it, an RN can administer this drug safely. Quite frankly, I've seen more complications with other IV drugs, like ritodrine or mag sulfate, I have administered than I have ever seen with any of the sedation drugs I just mentioned. Those RNs who are administering Propofol just need to publish their patient outcomes related to the safety of RN administered Propofol.

You really are lucky to work with such talented individuals who are both oral surgeons AND anesthesia providers. WOW, an MDA and oral surgeon. In reality, a person who gives an anesthesia drug is NOT an anesthesia provider. One, it is an accepted and established practice for the person DOING the procedure not to also perform the anesthesia. Dentists do this all the time; however they are unique in the fact it is a simple injection, not an IV titration issue. I can't really remember the last time someone went apneic and hypotensive from a LA root injection. So if the oral surgeons and "anesthesia provider" choose to do this, then it is on their name. Alternate scenario, if you are administering a general anesthetic (propofol), even under the guidance of a MD, then you are outside your practice act. Do not be fooled by the brevity of diprivan or your holier than thou oral surgeons who probably scoff at this idea. It is a cop out for them if they get away with you pushing propofol as you will be held legally liable, they assume the lesser. I can provide all kinds of information for support in my arguement, but you probably don't care. The mfg of dirpirvan explicitly outlines the guidelines for propofol. Step outside these guidelines and you are own your own. Don't be a "YES MAN" to MDs. Do what you want, I'm sure you will, but realize every cowboy has his day, oftentimes in court.

I work in oral surgery with non intubated patients. The oral surgeons I work with are anesthesia providers and what do you think they think about what the makers of Diprivan, the ASA or the AANA are saying? They may as well tell them to smoke their position statement because oral surgeons across the US are still doing surgery and using propofol every single day with excellent patient outcomes.

We use Versed and Fentanyl for most procedures and occasionally Propofol

if needed. With the proper training and experience and a nurse practice act that allows it, an RN can administer this drug safely. Quite frankly, I've seen more complications with other IV drugs, like ritodrine or mag sulfate, I have administered than I have ever seen with any of the sedation drugs I just mentioned. Those RNs who are administering Propofol just need to publish their patient outcomes related to the safety of RN administered Propofol.

You really are lucky to work with such talented individuals who are both oral surgeons AND anesthesia providers. WOW, an MDA and oral surgeon. In reality, a person who gives an anesthesia drug is NOT an anesthesia provider. One, it is an accepted and established practice for the person DOING the procedure not to also perform the anesthesia. Dentists do this all the time; however they are unique in the fact it is a simple injection, not an IV titration issue. I can't really remember the last time someone went apneic and hypotensive from a LA root injection. So if the oral surgeons and "anesthesia provider" choose to do this, then it is on their name. Alternate scenario, if you are administering a general anesthetic (propofol), even under the guidance of a MD, then you are outside your practice act. Do not be fooled by the brevity of diprivan or your holier than thou oral surgeons who probably scoff at this idea. It is a cop out for them if they get away with you pushing propofol as you will be held legally liable, they assume the lesser. I can provide all kinds of information for support in my arguement, but you probably don't care. The mfg of dirpirvan explicitly outlines the guidelines for propofol. Step outside these guidelines and you are own your own. Don't be a "YES MAN" to MDs. Do what you want, I'm sure you will, but realize every cowboy has his day, oftentimes in court.

You really are lucky to work with such talented individuals who are both oral surgeons AND anesthesia providers. WOW, an MDA and oral surgeon. In reality, a person who gives an anesthesia drug is NOT an anesthesia provider. One, it is an accepted and established practice for the person DOING the procedure not to also perform the anesthesia. Dentists do this all the time; however they are unique in the fact it is a simple injection, not an IV titration issue. I can't really remember the last time someone went apneic and hypotensive from a LA root injection. So if the oral surgeons and "anesthesia provider" choose to do this, then it is on their name. Alternate scenario, if you are administering a general anesthetic (propofol), even under the guidance of a MD, then you are outside your practice act. Do not be fooled by the brevity of diprivan or your holier than thou oral surgeons who probably scoff at this idea. It is a cop out for them if they get away with you pushing propofol as you will be held legally liable, they assume the lesser. I can provide all kinds of information for support in my arguement, but you probably don't care. The mfg of dirpirvan explicitly outlines the guidelines for propofol. Step outside these guidelines and you are own your own. Don't be a "YES MAN" to MDs. Do what you want, I'm sure you will, but realize every cowboy has his day, oftentimes in court.

My 18 year old son was going to have 4 of his wisdom teeth pulled. Much to my son's embarrassment, I accompanied him to the pre-op visit. I asked the oral surgeon if his IV sedation nurse (he said that she was an RN who had been hired specifically for this role--she was NOT a CRNA) was ACLS certified. He sort of hemmed and hawed aroud, and then said, "Well, I don't know, but I am. In fact, I took the same course as the anesthesiologists at OHSU (local medical school and trauma center) did" (I am betting he was referring to ACLS, but, who knows, he might have gone to some IV sedation or airway management class with some anesthesiologists there.) He did vaguely point to some certificate of completion he had on the wall.

Anyway, he then pulled out his crash cart and showed it to me, stating that he'd never had to use it. When we left the room, I saw him go straight to his IV sedation nurse and ask her if she was ACLS certified. She said "no."

How could she NOT be ACLS certified? I can't believe she'd take that risk, or that he would! Anyway, I still haven't taken my son to get his wisdome teeth pulled--I cancelled his next day appointment before I left. I will most likely take him somewhere else--I just was not comfortable, and I always trust my gut reaction.

Anyway, here's my final word of wisdom about Propofol, which I also posted on the gastroenterology nusing Propofol thread--it's not my own quote, but it's a good one:

"The reason anesthesiologists (or CRNAs) are needed to administer and count the drops of Propofol is that one drop can mean the difference between consciousness and apnea."

You really are lucky to work with such talented individuals who are both oral surgeons AND anesthesia providers. WOW, an MDA and oral surgeon. In reality, a person who gives an anesthesia drug is NOT an anesthesia provider. One, it is an accepted and established practice for the person DOING the procedure not to also perform the anesthesia. Dentists do this all the time; however they are unique in the fact it is a simple injection, not an IV titration issue. I can't really remember the last time someone went apneic and hypotensive from a LA root injection. So if the oral surgeons and "anesthesia provider" choose to do this, then it is on their name. Alternate scenario, if you are administering a general anesthetic (propofol), even under the guidance of a MD, then you are outside your practice act. Do not be fooled by the brevity of diprivan or your holier than thou oral surgeons who probably scoff at this idea. It is a cop out for them if they get away with you pushing propofol as you will be held legally liable, they assume the lesser. I can provide all kinds of information for support in my arguement, but you probably don't care. The mfg of dirpirvan explicitly outlines the guidelines for propofol. Step outside these guidelines and you are own your own. Don't be a "YES MAN" to MDs. Do what you want, I'm sure you will, but realize every cowboy has his day, oftentimes in court.

My 18 year old son was going to have 4 of his wisdom teeth pulled. Much to my son's embarrassment, I accompanied him to the pre-op visit. I asked the oral surgeon if his IV sedation nurse (he said that she was an RN who had been hired specifically for this role--she was NOT a CRNA) was ACLS certified. He sort of hemmed and hawed aroud, and then said, "Well, I don't know, but I am. In fact, I took the same course as the anesthesiologists at OHSU (local medical school and trauma center) did" (I am betting he was referring to ACLS, but, who knows, he might have gone to some IV sedation or airway management class with some anesthesiologists there.) He did vaguely point to some certificate of completion he had on the wall.

Anyway, he then pulled out his crash cart and showed it to me, stating that he'd never had to use it. When we left the room, I saw him go straight to his IV sedation nurse and ask her if she was ACLS certified. She said "no."

How could she NOT be ACLS certified? I can't believe she'd take that risk, or that he would! Anyway, I still haven't taken my son to get his wisdome teeth pulled--I cancelled his next day appointment before I left. I will most likely take him somewhere else--I just was not comfortable, and I always trust my gut reaction.

Anyway, here's my final word of wisdom about Propofol, which I also posted on the gastroenterology nusing Propofol thread--it's not my own quote, but it's a good one:

"The reason anesthesiologists (or CRNAs) are needed to administer and count the drops of Propofol is that one drop can mean the difference between consciousness and apnea."

Anyway, he then pulled out his crash cart and showed it to me, stating that he'd never had to use it. When we left the room, I saw him go straight to his IV sedation nurse and ask her if she was ACLS certified. She said "no."

How could she NOT be ACLS certified? I can't believe she'd take that risk, or that he would! Anyway, I still haven't taken my son to get his wisdome teeth pulled--I cancelled his next day appointment before I left. I will most likely take him somewhere else--I just was not comfortable, and I always trust my gut reaction.

I find it hard to believe the OMS your son saw hasn't had to administer anything out of his emergency box-not even Narcan or Romazicon or Benadryl? He's been very lucky.

The Ohio State University does have a 2 year dental anesthesiology residency program. I attended an Dental IV sedation program at the UCLA Dental School this summer and several of the DDS faculty were graduates of the program.

As for the nurse not being ACLS certified, that's just bad news for the patient, the nurse and the doctor.

You won't BELIEVE this story! As a relatively new circulator, I was asked to give CS to my patient during a hernia repair under LOCAL anesthesia! I told my supervisor that I was not comfortable with the situation, so she and the doc agreed that HE would sedate the patient while he was doing the surgery....my supervisor was the scrub and I was the circulator. Well, doc gave the first couple of doses of Demerol and Versed, changing his sterile gloves after each dose. My supervisor looked at me and said, "It's ok, go ahead and give the meds, Jane." I found myself thrust into a dangerous situation trying to circulate and sedate the pt. (Who, after over 50ccs of Lidocaine local, was still writhing and screaming on the or bed) It was too late for me to refuse the assignment by then, so I had to compromise my beliefs that day. I was so upset and angry that I let my patient down! I'm supposed to be his advocate. I tried to do the right thing by telling my supervisor I wasn't comfortable, but I was lured into that situation believing the doc was going to be responsible for sedation. Boy was I wrong! What could I have done in that situation? I don't want to hear about writing up anybody or anything I could have done afterwards.....I want to know what I should have done AS SOON as this situation reared it's ugly head.

Some nurses feel comfortable giving CS under the direction of a surgeon and some do not. Some hospitals allow it and some do not.

This is a big issue in nursing that needs to be addressed. I do think some kind of certification should be in order. I don't mean CRNA but something along the lines of ACLS.

I worry about nurses that give sedation in privately owned plastic surgery settings. You won't believe how fast the surgeon will turn on you when a patient dies.

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