The Circumcision Discussion - page 11

I know this can be a HUGE debate, and I'm not looking to start any arguments. I was just wondering as you are OB nurses. I'm expecting a boy in July and not sure if we should circ. or not. My... Read More

  1. by   Josh L.Ac.
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    What would YOU advocate for if it would save millions of lives? Would you hold our relative morality regarding our cultural norms and values regarding circumcision as more important a concept then those lives? (those are general questions not directly pointed towards the OP above.)

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Actually I wouldn't. If circumcising all the men in Africa would reduce the risk of HIV while also being done in a manner that did not cause post-op infections, then I would support it...unless there were cheaper, more effective options.
  2. by   mvanz9999
    Quote from RN mom of 2
    HALLELUJAH!!!

    I am SO with you on this. I witnessed a circ in nursing school that shook me to my core. Ever see a tiny baby pass out from the intensity of the pain? I did...and it was mortifying!

    When I got pg with my first son I researched high and low to find one good reason to circ my son. After the torture I witnessed I desperately needed one. I could not find any reason good enough to circ either one of my boys, including, because my husband is circumcised. To me, it's the least convincing argument of all. A person's genitalia is their business and no one else's. Who cares what another person's penis looks like? Women don't run around checking out each other's labias! My 4 yo has had zero problems being intact, because I follow the golden rule...leave it alone! The 8 mo is also fine.
    .............

    I could go on and on about this subject...but I'll put a cork in it for now. :wink2:
    We need more Moms like this one! Cheers!
  3. by   mvanz9999
    Quote from CHATSDALE
    the idea that circumcision was begun to prevent masturbation is completely out of the loop..cleanliness was believe to easier and is probably the primary reason that this study showed the results that it did
    the longer the virus remained in contact with penis the more likely it would be to enter host body
    and i thinkthat men have a sexual drive regardless of foreskin or no
    i am not for or against circumcision but sometimes facts get mixed with passion
    Begun? No. But sustained? Definitely:

    "A remedy [for masturbation] which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision...The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anesthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind...In females, the author has found the application of pure carbolic acid to the clitoris an excellent means of allaying the abnormal excitement. " -- Dr. John Harvey Kellogg (In his Treatment for Self-Abuse and its Effects)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg
    Last edit by mvanz9999 on Dec 14, '06
  4. by   firstyearstudent
    I don't think there is any study showing high circumcision rates in the West correlate with reduced HIV transmission. In fact, many European nations have low circumcision rates as well as low HIV transmission rates.

    Personally, I think there is a better way to fight HIV transmission in the first world. Circumcision seems a little extreme here and probably isn't worth the risks and losses from a public health standpoint. (Although that may not be the case in Africa.) You do have to weigh the losses. Think how low our HIV transmission rates would be if all our male infants underwent penectomy.
  5. by   mvanz9999
    Quote from firstyearstudent
    ....Think how low our HIV transmission rates would be if all our male infants underwent penectomy.

    LOL! My point exactly!
  6. by   elthia
    I am vehemently anti routine circumcision for cosmetic purposes, but I live in the U.S.
    The sexual mores and ethics in Africa are totally different than the U.S. From some things I have read in the news, it's more expensive to pay for the condom than the prostitute in some areas.

    I do not condone prostitution, or any risky sexual activity, I do not condone the amputation of a body parts or genital mutilation to prevent transmission of a PREVENTABLE disease, but these are MY middle-class semi-conservative American views. Maybe for people living in Africa, where AIDS is rampant, the ends justify the means. If you reduce HIV transmission in men, then you reduce the numbers of young girls who become HIV+ as the result of violent rape.
  7. by   txspadequeenRN
    My personal thought is if God didn't want you to have it ..you wouldn't be born with it. We should leave the dinkies alone..I am grateful that I have all girls because my husband would insist on a circ and I don't think I could consent to it..As far as infection, keep the damn thing clean and teach the boy proper hygiene. About HIV...LOL teach your son to keep it in his pants and give him a good sex ed class just in case it wonders out. I'm just being funny but you can get my point....
  8. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from txspadequeen921
    My personal thought is if God didn't want you to have it ..you wouldn't be born with it.
    So, you're opposed to women shaving their legs and armpit hair, too? I mean, if God didn't want you to have it, you wouldn't be born with the ability to grow it. . .

    Besides, I WOULD point out that the MAJOR reason that circumcision is as prevalent as it is: God decreed it. That might not be the major reason most Americans turn their kids' 'dinkies' into convertibles today but, surely, God can't be opposed to an idea originally sanctioned by HIM.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Dec 14, '06
  9. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    So, you're opposed to women shaving their legs and armpit hair, too? I mean, if God didn't want you to have it, you wouldn't be born with it. . .

    Besides, I WOULD point out that the MAJOR reason that circumcision is as prevalent as it is: God decreed it. That might not be the major reason most Americans turn their kids' 'dinkies' into convertibles today but, surely, God can't be opposed to an idea originally sanctioned by HIM.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Good point about God

    I am opposed to it but of course the fathers of my boys (gee that sounds so bad, like I'm a "Run Around Sue" kind of girl) . . .anyway, in my first marriage I had two boys and their DAD was insistent on circumcision. Marriage #2 I had a girl and then a boy 5 years ago - his dad also wanted the circ.

    I think the argument about Dad's wanting their sons to look like them is particularly hilarious because a little boy's whoo whoo does NOT look like their Dad's and if it did, little boy would be in big trouble.

    I'm reminded of a dinner at a friend's house where the Dad took the toddler son to the bathroom and the son came out first and said "My daddy has a really big penis and mine is small". We all cracked up. But daddy's did look different than his. Circ'd or not.

    I've also mentioned on other circ threads that my two olders boys have told me they would be very angry with me if I had not had them circ'd.

    SO, this is from the guys themselves - they want to be circ'd.

    No matter what mommy thinks.

    steph
  10. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from stevielynn
    I've also mentioned on other circ threads that my two olders boys have told me they would be very angry with me if I had not had them circ'd.

    SO, this is from the guys themselves - they want to be circ'd.

    No matter what mommy thinks.

    steph
    To me, the idea of not being circ'd is very similar to the thoughts you ladies had with my last comment: of being told it's 'barbaric' for you to shave your pits and legs.

    It had NOTHING to do with 'looking like Daddy' and everything to do with my established cultural norms and beliefs regarding basic hygiene.

    And, before you say that you have a choice with shaving and the kiddos don't, really, DO you have a choice? If you think you do, then go for it: If you can't go a year without shaving, then don't complain to me that my actions regarding my sons are 'barbaric'.

    In fact, if you can't go a year being 'as God intended you', then I think you have no grounds whatsoever arguing against circumcision. If YOU can't violate your established standards for what is 'normal' hygiene, then it's highly hypocritical to argue to me about same.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
  11. by   mvanz9999
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    To me, the idea of not being circ'd is very similar to the thoughts you ladies had with my last comment: of being told it's 'barbaric' for you to shave your pits and legs.

    It had NOTHING to do with 'looking like Daddy' and everything to do with my established cultural norms and beliefs regarding basic hygiene.

    And, before you say that you have a choice with shaving and the kiddos don't, really, DO you have a choice? If you think you do, then go for it: If you can't go a year without shaving, then don't complain to me that my actions regarding my sons are 'barbaric'.

    In fact, if you can't go a year being 'as God intended you', then I think you have no grounds whatsoever arguing against circumcision. If YOU can't violate your established standards for what is 'normal' hygiene, then it's highly hypocritical to argue to me about same.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    I think where your argument fails is that circumcision is amputation of the foreskin. It never, ever, ever, ever grows back (nor do the nerves). In addition, babies are not offered the choice. It's an irreversible procedure, and once it's gone...it's GONE for good.

    When you are old enough to understand the pros and cons, you can make a rational choice. Babies cannot.

    Shaving it's not the permanent removal of hair follicles. You can shave as much as you want, and then stop. You will still have hair. Nothing has been permanently removed.

    Why any sane, circ'd adult male would want his own son circ'd is beyond me. Even though I am circ'd, I would never, ever allow this on my own child.
  12. by   Focker
    Quote from RN mom of 2
    Mainly, I find the practice completely barbaric, and all these boys will never know what has been taken from them. Also, they still aren't sure how the pain of the circ may permanently affect their developing brains. The newborn brain is a blank slate, and some believe intense pain may cause permanent negative pathways to form in their brains. Who knows how this may affect boys throughout their lives? Maybe it's one of the reasons some men are so angry and violent? Just a thought.
    Are you guys not aware that they use local anesthesia when they do a circumcision?
  13. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from mvanz9999
    I think where your argument fails is that circumcision is amputation of the foreskin. It never, ever, ever, ever grows back (nor do the nerves). In addition, babies are not offered the choice. It's an irreversible procedure, and once it's gone...it's GONE for good.

    When you are old enough to understand the pros and cons, you can make a rational choice. Babies cannot.

    Shaving it's not the permanent removal of hair follicles. You can shave as much as you want, and then stop. You will still have hair. Nothing has been permanently removed.

    Why any sane, circ'd adult male would want his own son circ'd is beyond me. Even though I am circ'd, I would never, ever allow this on my own child.
    It's less barbaric then teaching little girls to butcher their legs and pits week after week after week. At least w/ a circ, it's a one time event and not remembered.

    So far as sexual situations, which are indirectly at the root of the issue, I don't have to FREAK out because my legs aren't shaved: the circ thing is 'built -in'. "I can't. No really, I can't: I haven't circ'd myself in awhile . . ." So, you see, I think the fact that it 'never, never, EVER grows back' is actually a good thing.

    'Amputation': I know the intent is to make the concept loom so large, but that to me is like saying that I need to go 'amputate' my nails because they are too long.

    You just can't prove to me that I am missing some 'nerve endings' anymore then you can prove that it stops masturbation. That is SO subjective, trying to define the difference is as impossible as trying to prove to you that what you see as yellow, I see as green.

    I made my decisions, I would do it again. If the situation should present itself, I will do it again. No regrets, whatsoever.

    Believe me, if my kids want to rebel because I didn't offer them THIS choice, boy, do they have lots to complain about regarding the direction of their lives, many of the now established concepts I gave them no 'choice' about.

    It simply wasn't my kids' choice. It was MINE. I am completely comfortable reserving that as my sole perogative. It's not nearly the only thing that I have declared absolute hegemony over when it comes to raising my boys. And they are decent, respectful, loving humans as a result. Again, no regrets, whatsoever.

    But, none of this, of course, has to do with using a valid, simple and cheap medical procedure to save millions of lives in Africa/Asia.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Dec 14, '06

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