Drug Abuse/Nurses/Kristi - page 5

I tried posting a reply directly to your post, but when I typed in my ID, etc., it just flipped me back to your topic, and didn't let me post, so I started a new topic, but on the SAME topic. I can't... Read More

  1. by   bunky
    Excuse me? I think it's YOU who has the bias! Or maybe YOU are just ignorant or your gene pool is too shallow to allow you to understand how anyone can view something differently than your limited insight allows. I am uncertain why I should be the object of your rantings, when all I am trying to understand is WHY. How on earth does that somehow make ME uncompassionate? I'd rather ask why and look for alternative reasons than to be like YOU and grow arrogant and rude!



    [This message has been edited by bunky (edited July 17, 2000).]
  2. by   PPL
    Dearest Bunky, thanks for taking the heat off me for awhile! I'll just sit here in the shade, with an iced cup of Tim Horton's and enjoy my vacation! I can dig it!
  3. by   bunky
    PPL you dog! Enjoy the Tim's and the R&R!

    ESDRN, no where have I professed to being an expert on the subject. I have however done a bit of reading, and in reference to my own family tree? I did in fact take a close look at it, and acknowledge that there is at least one alcoholic hiding in it's branches, which is why I don't feel bad if I've shaken someone else's. I am NOT pointing fingers of blame, so relax.

    My idea of there being an underlying psychological problem is hardly ground breaking thinking either! I wonder about the nature vs nurture component to it. And alcoholism is listed in the DSM. As for familial tendencies, I am at risk, and me being forewarned of this risk, I rarely drink, which is a personal choice. Don't get on your bandwagon over this statement. I congratulate you for your achievements, but what I was trying to understand is if there was something going on before alcohol became involved? Is there an underlying personality that makes one more susceptible to begin with? The bit of reading I have done says that yes, in fact that may be a factor! Looking again at my family tree, oh yes, I can see how this idea may bare fruit. No pun intended. The person in question was sexually abused as a child. Did alcohol become an ineffective coping mechanism much later in life? In this case, yes, I think it did. Did you think I pulled all of this stuff out of a hat and decided to post it just to ridicule YOU?!

    Go ahead and respond, but don't single me out as your whipping post here. Think about me as a family member of an alcoholic, and afford me a tiny smidge of credibility, understanding and respect from THAT view point!
  4. by   esdrn
    Bunky, My deepest aplolgies to you. As you might have figured out, one of my character defects is becoming defensive when it is not necessary. Again, I APOLIGIZE arrogance and rudeness. You have made several good points in your postings. I agree, that there is underlying factors which could enhance one's potential for becoming alcoholic. On the other hand, I also believe that there are a lot of alcoholics who have never taken a drink. Yet, given the opportunity or the "reaon" to drink, they would become a practicing alcoholic. Yes, I also believe that a lot of alcoholics start using as an in effective means of coping (or as a means of excape). I didn't suffer anysexual abuse but I did come from a dysfunctional family with several alcoholics hanging on the tree branches. Also, my family divorced when I was 11 years old. I don't blame my alcoholism on this factor though. Although it did create more opportunities to drink without consequences. Yet, I look around and alcoholism doesn't discriminate. I t does not care who you are or what you have (rich or poor, black or white, male or female) can and do become alcoholics. The causes and reasons for one becoming (or being born) an alcoholic could go on for infinity. I will say this; after drinking for may years (20) I had lost my self-respect, my pride, had became depressed and even contemplated suicide (being chicken#*$#) stopped this thought. So I did have numerous psych problems which were related to alcoholism, yet these were after the fact. However, to be quite honest, I never did feel like I fit in anywhere, even as a child. So I would have to agree that there is some type of psychiatric issues but the list is probably infinite just like the reasons and causes. Again I didn't mean to lash out at you and if there is anyway I can help you in regards to this subject; PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ASK! I will answer questions honestly and to the best of my ability.
    Originally posted by bunky:
    PPL you dog! Enjoy the Tim's and the R&R!

    ESDRN, no where have I professed to being an expert on the subject. I have however done a bit of reading, and in reference to my own family tree? I did in fact take a close look at it, and acknowledge that there is at least one alcoholic hiding in it's branches, which is why I don't feel bad if I've shaken someone else's. I am NOT pointing fingers of blame, so relax.

    My idea of there being an underlying psychological problem is hardly ground breaking thinking either! I wonder about the nature vs nurture component to it. And alcoholism is listed in the DSM. As for familial tendencies, I am at risk, and me being forewarned of this risk, I rarely drink, which is a personal choice. Don't get on your bandwagon over this statement. I congratulate you for your achievements, but what I was trying to understand is if there was something going on before alcohol became involved? Is there an underlying personality that makes one more susceptible to begin with? The bit of reading I have done says that yes, in fact that may be a factor! Looking again at my family tree, oh yes, I can see how this idea may bare fruit. No pun intended. The person in question was sexually abused as a child. Did alcohol become an ineffective coping mechanism much later in life? In this case, yes, I think it did. Did you think I pulled all of this stuff out of a hat and decided to post it just to ridicule YOU?!

    Go ahead and respond, but don't single me out as your whipping post here. Think about me as a family member of an alcoholic, and afford me a tiny smidge of credibility, understanding and respect from THAT view point!
  5. by   esdrn
    Bunky, I will not get into a shouting match with you in regards to a subject that you evidently know nothing about. However, I will make a suggestion, that is if you are really interested in learning. I suggest that you do some critique reviews of research that have already been performed on this issue. Better yet, I suggest that you maybe conduct your own experimental research on the subject. Find out for yourself.
    Originally posted by bunky:
    Excuse me? I think it's YOU who has the bias! Or maybe YOU are just ignorant or your gene pool is too shallow to allow you to understand how anyone can view something differently than your limited insight allows. I am uncertain why I should be the object of your rantings, when all I am trying to understand is WHY. How on earth does that somehow make ME uncompassionate? I'd rather ask why and look for alternative reasons than to be like YOU and grow arrogant and rude!

    [This message has been edited by bunky (edited July 17, 2000).]
  6. by   bunky
    Thank you esdrn! I didn't tell you that for pity, just to let you know that I wasn't a dumb#$$ entirely, but I thank you most sincerely for seeing what I was getting at and where I am coming from on this. I guess that one of the things about alcoholism and drug abuse that puzzles me is why some are able to recognize that it has the potential to become a problem for them and stop, and others can't, no matter what it's done to them and their loved ones. How does it escalate in some and not in others? Alcoholism, I can understand a bit more than drug abuse as it's the same drug just larger quantities needed over time. What I don't understand about the drug abuse issue is how one can go from pot at home to Demerol at work? These are two entirely different substances that act entirely different chemically in the body, both addictive, grant you, but why does it escalate to a totally different drug? Any thoughts on that anyone?
  7. by   esdrn
    My thoughts on why one esculates from pot at home to demerol at work is this:Think of it like this-when I initially began drinking at age 13, it didn't take much to get me drunk. However, as the tolerance built up it began to take more and more to obtain the disired effect. This is the same way I believe with drugs. The drug which they are currently on has either stopped producing the effect they received initially and thus they progress to more potent drugs to obtain the effct. Also, they may have been out of their "pot" one day and dicided to try demerol at work. If they were already addicts, then this just set the ball in motion. On the other hand they may have been using more than pot initially; such as illicit drug use. but the best theory I have is that the drug they were taking has stopped producing the desired effect and thus as an addict new drugs are tried and tried and tried. Hope this helps.
    Originally posted by bunky:
    Thank you esdrn! I didn't tell you that for pity, just to let you know that I wasn't a dumb#$$ entirely, but I thank you most sincerely for seeing what I was getting at and where I am coming from on this. I guess that one of the things about alcoholism and drug abuse that puzzles me is why some are able to recognize that it has the potential to become a problem for them and stop, and others can't, no matter what it's done to them and their loved ones. How does it escalate in some and not in others? Alcoholism, I can understand a bit more than drug abuse as it's the same drug just larger quantities needed over time. What I don't understand about the drug abuse issue is how one can go from pot at home to Demerol at work? These are two entirely different substances that act entirely different chemically in the body, both addictive, grant you, but why does it escalate to a totally different drug? Any thoughts on that anyone?
  8. by   bunky
    OK ESDRN, here's a test of our tentative new found understanding. What do you think should happen if an RN gets caught drunk on the job, or stealing from the narcotic box?

    I worked in a small community (only one hospital)where a local boy(turned God like Doctor), in the communities eyes,walked on water, specializing in OB, NOT an actual OB/GYN, but specialized GP. He got busted very publically by the FDA for stealing narcotics and he and his wife were both addicted, and both left the state to go to rehab. Of course he lost hospital privelages, and his license was yanked for a time. He came back, resumed his clinic, and was once again busted by the FDA, and rumor had it that they even found a heplock in his ankle! A year went by and now he not only has his practice back but he was just given his hospital privelages back! I feel this was insane! I don't think he should have had a license after the second drug bust. The amazing thing is that these women still flock to him to deliver their babies. What do you think of that?
  9. by   esdrn
    OK, her goes! The key to the second chance in the same hospital, is the fact that he is a doctor. Another factor which probably influenced the hospital's decision to rehire and restore hospital priveleges; he makes money for the hospital. You said it yourself; the women still flock to see him. should the public refuse to be seen by him, the hospital would not have any reson to rehire him. BOTTOM LINE--HE MAKES THEM MONEY!!! As for my opinion on this issue, I believe that everyone should be given another chance (ONLY ONE THOUGH). I believe that anyone deserves the chance to change. However, I agree with the position of my state board. If caught drinking or under the influence of drugs while on duty, then they should have to agree to and receive a minium of 30 days inpatient treatment at an alcohol and drug rehabilitation center. After completing the inaptient treatment, they should have to complete a 1 year outpatient treatment program (needs to be confirmed by proper authorities that patient did attend). During this year the person should also be required to attend at least 3 AA OR 3 NA (Narcotics Anonymous) meetings weekly. Also, this person should not be allowed to dispense narcotics for a year after completing the inpatient treatment program. In addition, I believe that the person should have to be tested periodically for three years by random urine drug screens. This is my view for the first offense. I really hesitate to commit myself on the second offense. My first inclination is, THAT'S IT, YOUR OUT!!! But let's be honest, even harden criminals get a three strikes and your out. However, They are not usually involved in occupations where they are respoonsible for peoples lives. In lieu of this, for the second offense I would probably reccomend more inpatient treatment, 2 or 3 years with liscense suspended (NOT ABLE TO WORK AS RN OR LPN), AA and NA meetings for the entire period of suspension (at least 3 weekly), random drug screens during this period (if they plan on being reinstated in the profession). After completing all of these requirements successfully, they would then have to appear before the board of nursing of their state for a readmission request. Should a third occurence occur (THAT'S IT, YOUR OUT---NO MORE NURSING). Now as far as the other question; Unfortunately, I was placed in this position. A close friend of mine was using while in Nursing School. Then one day she showed up at clinical under the influence. I felt I was obligated by the profession of nursing and for the safety of others to report this to the faculty. This was the hardest thing I had to do in nursing school. In this case though, befoore the faculty had a chance to confront or take any action, she admitted that she had a problem and sought treatment for it. Thank GOD! When people's lives are at stake, their lives must come first before friendship or commradre. I hope this is on the right track.
    Originally posted by bunky:se
    OK ESDRN, here's a test of our tentative new found understanding. What do you think should happen if an RN gets caught drunk on the job, or stealing from the narcotic box?

    I worked in a small community (only one hospital)where a local boy(turned God like Doctor), in the communities eyes,walked on water, specializing in OB, NOT an actual OB/GYN, but specialized GP. He got busted very publically by the FDA for stealing narcotics and he and his wife were both addicted, and both left the state to go to rehab. Of course he lost hospital privelages, and his license was yanked for a time. He came back, resumed his clinic, and was once again busted by the FDA, and rumor had it that they even found a heplock in his ankle! A year went by and now he not only has his practice back but he was just given his hospital privelages back! I feel this was insane! I don't think he should have had a license after the second drug bust. The amazing thing is that these women still flock to him to deliver their babies. What do you think of that?
  10. by   PPL
    Hi esdrn. I have a question. You and at least one other poster state that your substance abuse problems were already in place when you went into nursing. I have met one individual that seems to have gone into nursing because of the availability of drugs. What are your thoughts on this? Thanks.
  11. by   dianee
    This has been a very thought provoking discussion. I don't use alcohol or drugs, and I never have, but I also think we need to have policies that encourage nurses to seek and get help, rather than to punish them. I can't imagine how terrifying and isolating an adictive disease must be. Do we have a responsibility to safeguard the safety and well-being our patients? Of course we do. But we also have a responsibility to each other. We need to be more concerned with being fair and compassionate, than being on a moral crusade. There will always be nurses who are addicted working with us. The question is
    are we going to be part of the solution in trying to get them help, or are we going to push them further into the closet, and have bigger problems in the long run? I choose to be the first.
  12. by   PPL
    The above is a good post, thanks. I agree, that we have a responsibility to our patients! I'm not so sure about our responsibility to each other; and in fact, this kind of thinking may have already gotten us into much hot water in this country. For instance, am I responsible for an unwed mother's children? I don't think so, but I still am forced to pay for her mistake, sometimes, several mistakes. Do I have a responsibility to confront the addicted individual with my observations and/or turn him/her in? Maybe, but I've done neither. I think the INDIVIDUAL needs to be responsible for the INDIVIDUAL! I think this best serves the community, if you will. Now, if we operate from that premise, then, what do we do with those individuals that just cannot and/or WILL NOT take resonsibility for their actions/behavior? Do We then have a responsibility to protect ourselves from these individuals, while in the same breath, our government continues to show us that, no, it's us who must pay, and pay, and pay? At what point, are we doing a grave disservice to the individual, by cleaning up after their mistakes? How best will the individual learn, that they need to be responsible for themselves? I think it's by taking responsibility for their actions and behaviors, myself included, of course! Thanks.
  13. by   esdrn
    Hi PPL. I can only speak for myself on this issue. First of all, if I were still using while in nursing school, I would not have made it through nursing school. Also, should I start using today (BY THE GRACE OF GOD, I WON'T) I would not be working. You see when I use I become totally dysfunctional. I am not a recreational drinker. When I drink it is a 24/7 job. This person you speak of is currently a functional addict. Some people never become full-blown dysfunctional addicts/alcoholics. This means that they can still hold down a job and maintain on a functional level. Today ,I thank GOD that I became dysfunctional because if I could drink and manage to "maintain", I would still be using. I had to hit bottom and I thank GOD I did. I make no qualms about my disease of alcoholism. Everyone at work knows that I am a recovering alcoholic even the doctors. I TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY OWN ACTIONS, THEN AND NOW. This person you speak of who went in nursing for the availability of drugs; will probably have a short career. LET ME CLARIFY, MY SUBSTANCE ABUSE WAS NOT ALREADY IN PLACE BEFORE I STARTED NURSING SCHOOL, RATHER MY RECOVERY WAS ALREADY IN PLACE. I used for 20 years and never had to go to the hospital to obtain my alcohol.
    Originally posted by PPL:
    Hi esdrn. I have a question. You and at least one other poster state that your substance abuse problems were already in place when you went into nursing. I have met one individual that seems to have gone into nursing because of the availability of drugs. What are your thoughts on this? Thanks.

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