In my CNA course guys are not allowed to provide care to female residents during...

[Roland]

clinicals (for those of you that don't know I took a year off my BSN clinicals due to my mothers illness and she has since passed away). Our CNA instructor advised that at all of the long term care facilities that our school utilizes men cannot provide care to female residents (although females can provide care to male residents). She went on to explain that this policy will probably make it difficult for the men to obtain employment after the course ends at THESE facilities whereas most women may be offered immediate employment upon completion of the class, and pending passage of their state licensing examination (since the men are relatively less useful only being able to care for male residents). Is this a common practice in the world of CNA's? I haven't seen this issue in BSN nursing clinicals, although I've heard it can be in issue durign the OB rotation. How do long term facilities that have this policy avoid sexual discrimination lawsuits if they are open about not hiring male CNA's (as much) due to this policy? Why would this be such an issue with CNA's and not RN's (assuming that it's not, I've never heard of men having a harder time getting RN's jobs due to this issue although I've been told that certain patients may prefer not to have a man care for them).

I'm was hoping to work as a CNA over the summer to get back into the "routine" for BSN clinicals which will resume for me next fall. I'm sure, I'll be able to find something, but it irks me that all three facilities that my CNA school utilizes have this policy.

[ktwlpn, LPN]

Ktwlpn, I guess I don't understand the distinction between females caring for males, and males caring for females. I think that if there is going to be a "same sex only" care policy that it should be enforced for BOTH sexes. In addition, if it affects hiring practices I would think that would clearly violate federal anti-sexual discrimination practices. I remember my uncle once fuming when he had to pay out a LARGE settlement for not hiring females at his construction company. He claimed that none of the guys would work with females around (and having worked there occasionally it was somewhat true). However, the law is the law, and he had to pay BIG TIME (so big that his company went out of business in fact).

You have to remember you are talking about LTC-little old ladies.....Nursing has traditionally been accepted as a profession for women-historically females have cared for males because that was what the nursing profession was..pre-dominantly female...Who really knows if these facilities actually have a policy or if it only applies to your program.Why don't you ask the human resources deparetment when you go in again-find out if this is true.It would be impossible in most facilities to enforce a same sex policy as you stated,Roland.I work in a 275 bed facility and we have 2 full time male cna's on day shift.....Only 2.....we do have several in the prn pool and when they work they can only be assigned to particular units.It has not been a problem...I don't know how this can be applied to hiring practices but I do know that LTC is very different from other areas of nursing-there are lots of exeptions to the regulations-unbelievable stuff.....Just know that as a male cna you will have no problem finding a job-just maybe not washing little old ladies whoo-hoo's...I am sure you will be an asset to any acute care setting...

(rhonda-do you mean "discriminatory"? Woukld your 88 yr old half demented grandmother be comfortable with a young male cna attending to her persoanl care needs? In my experience most of them are not)

[Roland]

Of course I believe that as a matter of principal that any person has the right to refuse care from any other person (given that they are of a legal status to make such decisions "ie not legally insane"). However, my problem is when it becomes a matter of policy. I recently had to go to the hospital due to a lower back problem involving my L-3/4 vertebra where cauda equina was suspected. One of the things that they did was to perform an "anal sphincter" strength test. I would have VASTLY preferred a male doctor over the female PA that did the test. My wife would have VASTLY preferred a female OBGYN during her last pregnancy (actually just about any other Dr. would have been nice, but she was on state insurance so we took what was offered). My point is that there may be just as many "little old men" who would feel more comfortable with a male providing care, but it's not a matter of policy. My mother during her final days "regressed" to her childhood days in the south (circa 1930) and would vastly preferred NOT to be attended to by minorities. However, I specifically refused her this request because I believed it to be hurtful, and based upon an evil ideology that she had acquired during her youth (again she was dying from cancer and drugged on Haldol so I didn't blaime her for the emotions, but neither would I cater to them). Again, the law is the law, and you cannot base hiring decisions upon sex, race, religious preference, or other protected catagories. In conclusion, any "little old lady" that does not wish for a man to care for her should have that right, staff permitting (and the reverse also applies). However, it should under no circumstances be a matter of policy and indeed the law does not in my opinion even allow for this option.

[Dayray, RN]

Roland, first let me say that I am sorry to hear about your mother.

Now for the subject at hand..

It is wrong and it is discrimination but good luck fighting it. It is one thing for a patient to refuse you as care provider. It is completely another for an employer to assign your duties based on gender.

Yes patients have the right to refuse care from men if they wish, however this is used as an excuse for Polices and attitudes that discriminate against men in nursing.

I have encountered few patients that have such strong feelings against male nursing staff but have known many more health care providers that hide a personal distaste for males caring for females behind such polices and attitudes. True some females wouldn't want a man to provide peri care but most wouldn't care. I will bet you a dollar that the policy isn't in writing although it may be well known.

I say good luck fighting it because it would be more trouble then it's worth. You could hire a lawyer, spend time and money and maybe.. maybe win in court but then you would have to work for and with people that don't want you there. Nursing is changing someday this will be a thing of the past. For now all you can do is be a good CNA/nurse and wait.

My advise is to finish your CNA course then find a place that doesn't have such silly policies and never look back.

Just know that policies like this are wrong, know that your being a man should have nothing to do with your value as a nurse, know that your not alone and finally know that there are many patients male and female that will benefit from and appreciate your care.

[Roland]

No, I could in no way afford to "fight" this policy right now. In addition, I am just looking to get back into the "swing of things" for BSN nursing clinicals next Fall. I'm sure that I will be able to find many places where this is not an issue (and even the places where IT IS still hire SOME male CNA's). Rather, I am trying to understand how any rational, logical, person could publically endorse such a POLICY when it so clearly flies in the face of established law. What galled me was that our CNA instructor (who holds an MSN and really IS a nice person in my opinion) could publicly state this policy as if it were no big deal! It would be like a caucasion professors standing up and saying on the first day of class "by the way we don't allow persons of different races or religion to care for clients different from their own". They would at the least face censure, and more likely be dismissed from their jobs for even saying such a thing. I didn't in fact say anything, but when the two other guys in the class objected (both former Army Rangers) they were advised that those were the rules and were not up for discussion.

In any case as rappers say "I've done my thing", and said everything I can think of to say on the issue.

[Dayray, RN]

I once witnessed a conversation between a very nice store owner and a lady looking for work.

I had been going to the store for years and had spoken with the owner many times. He was very generous and giving. He was also very a successful businessman and fairly intelligent. I had seen him on many occasions pack huge bags of groceries to give to needy families.

He smiled at the women as she handed him the application, then he threw it in the trash and told her to go and find a husband to support her as she was "too pretty to work".

I guess the moral is that some of nicest and smartest people in the world are afflicted with prejudiced and ignorance in some areas. I still think he was a nice man just ignorant in that one aspect.

Also his attitude was one that was generally accepted in the past just as the attitudes toward men in nursing are now.

[tmiller027]

I once witnessed a conversation between a very nice store owner and a lady looking for work.

I had been going to the store for years and had spoken with the owner many times. He was very generous and giving. He was also very a successful businessman and fairly intelligent. I had seen him on many occasions pack huge bags of groceries to give to needy families.

He smiled at the women as she handed him the application, then he threw it in the trash and told her to go and find a husband to support her as she was "too pretty to work".

I guess the moral is that some of nicest and smartest people in the world are afflicted with prejudiced and ignorance in some areas. I still think he was a nice man just ignorant in that one aspect.

Also his attitude was one that was generally accepted in the past just as the attitudes toward men in nursing are now.

At my LTC facility, there are a few female residents who refuse to have males care for them, but there are also a few males who refuse to have females care for them. The facility I work in is good about respecting patients rights, and there are a handful of us male CNAs working there. They don't make it a matter of policy. That was one of the questions I had to answer during the interview. My only fear is ever being accused of something improper. Not that I engage in such behavior, but I"ve heard of false accusations being made before, and even though the person is cleared, it still casts a dark cloud over them.

[Roland]

No one wants to be accused of something improper, but are not females equally vulnerable to such charges? Unfortunately, (or fortunately depending upon your perspective) my solution of total surveillance monitoring in acute and LTC facilities will probably never be implemented due to privacy concerns. I've always felt that if I ever had a daycare center (see my thread about a 24/7 daycare center around hospitals) that I would implement something like this to defend against those sort of allegations.

[tmiller027]

No one wants to be accused of something improper, but are not females equally vulnerable to such charges? Unfortunately, (or fortunately depending upon your perspective) my solution of total surveillance monitoring in acute and LTC facilities will probably never be implemented due to privacy concerns. I've always felt that if I ever had a daycare center (see my thread about a 24/7 daycare center around hospitals) that I would implement something like this to defend against those sort of allegations.

I'm sure it happens to females, but I've mostly heard of it happening to males. And I doubt they'll ever put cameras in residence's rooms.

[Dayray, RN]

I have to admit the fear of such accusations has worried me too. However you have to just accept that it is a danger. Be careful what you say and do with patients make sure to always explain what and why you do things. Don't hesitate to ask you patient if they are okay or if they want you to stop what you are doing.

Nursing staff is given a great deal of trust and as such there is potential for abuse of this trust. Make sure your patient knows you care about them and are interested in there well being. I think that allot of the false accusations are made because people don't take the time to pay attention to the patients feelings. There is a desire to get uncomfortable things over with quickly and in that haste it is possible to make a patient feel abused.

Also think about what you are doing while you do it. Make sure that the things you do are completely in line with what any other caregiver would do. Always do things the same way. If you ever had to defend your actions in court make sure that there aren't aspects of your care that would cause them to be questioned.

I sometimes ask for a coworker to come in the room with me. I don't always ask, just when I think it's necessary.

You have to keep it in your mind that you are at risk for such accusations but not allow it to paralyze you or stop you from doing your job. Always talk with your patients.