How Will Universal Health Care Change Nursing?

Nurses General Nursing

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How will universal health care change the Nursing profession? Will we finally get ratios? Will our pay go up, or down? What about benefits? Will the quality of care improve, slide, or stay the same? How would a "single-payer" system be structured? Would this be the end of the insurance industry as we know it? I would like to hear from everyone who has an opinion about any of these questions.

Swift Boat Propaganda:down: Don't look at that man behind the curtain.

“We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.” ... Albert Einstein

John Stossel? Swift Boat? That is funny. :rolleyes:

Do you ever watch "Give Me A Break"?

He does a very credible job at rebutting Michael Moore and gives solid examples of alternatives. And he interviews the insurance companies. And he talks to "Whole Foods" who have Health Savings Accounts.

There is no man hiding behind the curtain. John is straight forward.

steph

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Universal Health Care will equal less jobs and lower pay. Patient care will ultimately end up suffering whether it be to an underpaid physician or an angry underpaid overworked employees. This whole scheme has been set up to fail so the Social health care system will prevail. Americans will take the bait hook, line and sinker. They don't know enough about european healthcare and "for some reason" think its better.

Scenerio: Patient goes to the Dr. for minor problems a few times in a row, maybe not sick at all. They end up getting denied healthcare b/c they seem to be crazy by the provider, or worse jail, psych facility.

Intergrated Patient Record Data Base Scenerio: Background checks have reveiled that you were prescribed xanax back in 95 and you were seeing a psychiatrist. Can you tell me a little about what was going on in your life then and why it won't affect your job.

That was the worst case "big brother" scenerio of course. My wife is from Romania and she would be happy to tell you about Socialized health care. The hospital is a place you DO NOT want to be. You have to pay each nurse every shift cash so they will provide better care. All surgeries are negotiated behind closed doors. The question is "how much should I pay this Dr.?, did I underpay or overpay?" If you don't have money to buy off "people" god help you. Now we are well ahead of Romania as a society but this Universal "social" healthcare system ultimely leads to this type stuff. Oh on a final note, nursing isn't even considered a profession, its a joke to the people in Europe as a general whole from my experience.

My Polish friend said you have to bribe the docs and nurses for better care.

steph

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"First and foremost, excessive waiting for care is associated with negative health consequences, both physical and psychological, in addition to increased social and economic costs. If Canadians do not have timely access to the health services they require, confidence in our health system will continue to erode. This is a key concern as evidenced by public opinion polls." (Quote: Canadian Nurses Association)

I've been told by many on this website (who claim to be Canadian) that the problem with long, excessive waits in treatments do not exist and that it's all propaganda by the AMA, cohorts, liars, etc...

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Specializes in ER/EHR Trainer.
"First and foremost, excessive waiting for care is associated with negative health consequences, both physical and psychological, in addition to increased social and economic costs. If Canadians do not have timely access to the health services they require, confidence in our health system will continue to erode. This is a key concern as evidenced by public opinion polls." (Quote: Canadian Nurses Association)

I've been told by many on this website (who claim to be Canadian) that the problem with long, excessive waits in treatments do not exist and that it's all propaganda by the AMA, cohorts, liars, etc...

Well I guess if excessive waiting is detrimental NO CARE WOULD BE CATASTROPHIC! :D Let's ask the people who are sick what they'd prefer, a wait or no care.

M

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U.S. Government is imperfect with a great deal of corruption and a few good people like John Conyers, Dennis Kucinich, Eric Massa, and others who DO want to do the right thing for all of us, which is their ethical responsibility to do. THEY deserve our support because THEY are swimming upstream for us to pass legislation that will help PEOPLE and NOT CORPORATIONS!!

Your free market privateers are making all the laws that are making "government" fail. So, let's keep letting the entities that are CAUSING the problem keep running the show that -- "free" markets.

That's a true definition of INSANITY!!!

Do you realize that the governemnt does not create wealth? Every penny spent by the government is a penny appropiated through taxation. If it wasn't for the disgusting profits of those evil corporations, not only would our government collapse, but health care would be non-existent.

It's absolutely laughable that you honestly believe that the politicians in Washington are doing this becase they care about us. The CBO recently scored the Kennedy Bill and found the annual cost per person covered to be $62500. We could give everyone in American without health insurance an annual $10,000 tax credit for the purpose of obtaining insurance, and even allow any remaining money to be deposited tax free into a health savings account to cover any and all foreseeable patient cost sharing, and it would STILL cost a fraction of the govenrment proposal.

Why do the politicians then, support UHC as opposed to market based reform? It's quite simple really, nationalized health care gives greater power and control to the politicans. It's power that motivates these people not concern for the general welfare.

Lastly, if this really is such a great piece of legislation, why did Congress specifically EXEMPT themselves from the plan? An honest answer to that question will end this debate once and for all.

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I'm not sure if you can support your overt or inadvertent claim that I support America's current health care system. So your response has no worth.

But, to respond to you within the diameters of your question I'd have to say, depending on the severity of the ailment, that both health care systems would fail the patient.

I'm curious. Can anyone who works here in America give real life experiences, not stories you've read on the internet, of patients you have personally cared for who have not received care for a major ailments because they didn't have insurance? Personally, I never have. The only patient I've ever taken care of who was refused treatment was a ICU Mexican illegal who was denied dialysis.

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I would LOVE to hear Canadian's perspectives about their plans, as it is true that I hear a lot of nightmarish stories. It would be nice to hear the GOOD things about it. Anyhow, back to the OP's question...how will it affect nursing??

I don't have time right now to read through all of the posts, but here's my two cents.

1.) Canada is a capitalist country, for those of you who failed economics or went to an American school where this was never taught. Yes, our healthcare is paid for by tax dollars, but we are not a 'socialist' country per se. We just have healthcare as a birthright, as does every other 1st world country. We don't have to worry about getting denied healthcare because we happen to have asthma or had an ear infection at age 4. We don't have to worry if we can afford the co-pays for cancer treatment...if we even GET approval or manage to keep our insurance after a cancer diagnosis. If we get into a car accident, we are transported to a trauma centre, and we will walk (limp) out without a 6 figure bill. Our hospitals are just as modern and high tech as yours. It's not Africa over here. Americans are often 'brainwashed' to believe that universal healthcare is the devil and our hospitals lack running water....

2.) Our population is getting old, fatter, and sicker. This is what's draining the system. If people would start taking care of their OWN health, instead of waiting for the doctor and a little white pill to fix them, that would take most of the strain off the system. Lose weight, stop smoking, start eating right, and start exercising. If you need knee replacement (not urgent), yes, you will wait. However, it is well known that the major increase in joint replacement is due to the major increase in obesity (which is lifestyle related). People have to start taking reponsibility for their own well-being. In France, Sweden, and other countries, where obesity is not as common, their universal healthcare is relatively fine. If you need emergency surgery (bypass, etc.) however, you will get it as quick as you would in the US, of course. There are some waits for *elective* surgery. If you cases worsens, you can be moved up.

3.) Healthcare workers are paid well here. Doctors (general practice) average $140,000-200,000ish, with specialists and those who work at urban walk-in clinics making $400,000+. In the latter case, it's base salary plus per patient, so if you can fit in more patients, you make more money. Some specialists in Ontario are making/will make in the 650,000s, or so I've heard. Nurses in SK and AB make good money. LPNs in SK make about $25ish per hour, and RNs start at $30/hr and go up to $42ish. $45/hr for nurse specialist positions. RTs and other techs average about $30-$35 per hour give or take. We just started using NPs here, so I am not sure on those salaries. We don't have CRNAs in Canada, so I can't compare here either.

While you won't (usually) be rich being a healthcare worker in Canada, you are well compensated. Sure the odd MD who also teaches/does research can make a ridiculous salary, but you don't need to do that to make money. Personally, if an MD who makes $250,000 or a nurse who makes $80,000 is complaining about their salary, they are not in healthcare for the right reasons in my opinion. They should appreciate the fact they live in country that doesn't deny anyone healthcare or dump discharged homeless people in the street.

While the Canadian system is not perfect, it works fairly well if people use common sense. I find that the same people who complain about our heatlhcare system are the people who:

-Abuse their bodies, don't take care of their health and now are angry because there is no quick fix. Just because you let yourself gain 200 lbs in the past 4 years doesn't mean that you will get put on the top of the list for knee replacement.

-Go to the ER for a head cold or minor injury (PET PEEVE ALERT).

-Visit the doctor for every little thing or because they are lonely (Referrals to seniors social programs and charging $5 user fees may help discourage this).

-State that there "are no doctors" because they don't want to see the doctors that are taking patients (I.e. female, black, young, too old, works in another part of town, etc.).

Generally speaking, considering that I can walk into any clinic today, see a doc, get a prescription, and walk out (no billing), I can't complain. If I break my legs, I can go into the ER, get set and casted, and roll out without a bill. *Everyone* who is Canadian has this right, and I like knowing that each person has a right to care and some fat guy in a suit down at Big Insurance isn't deciding who lives or dies, and how much they pay to do so.

I care deeply about the situation in the US. I can't say what's best for them, I think at this point no one knows. The US is too sick and poor as a whole to readily suggest what is the correct thing to do. With the current state of obesity and chronic disease in the US, and the economy (Canada has not been hit quite as hard), I can't say that universal healthcare would be the best choice for the US right now. However, leaving the uninsured and uninsurable to suffer and die isn't right either. I think that *some* sort of reform needs to happen, they question is what. I think Obama is on the right track. I respect those who disagree, but then they need to come up with something better, as US healthcare in its current state isn't going to improve on its own.

:twocents:

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I work in Canada and I can attest to the fact that we do have HUGE staffing shortages with nurses and doctors, our equipment in some areas is older...The wait time was horrible, and we do often have to wait hours to get into emergency departments however can you complain about the care you recieved by these staff??

It's the same in the U.S. I've had patients wait six hours or more because of understaffing and the fact that so many people have put off seeing a doc until it's become an emergency because they can't pay for a doctor's visit. That was such a common thing I can still recite it by heart.

Overcrowding and understaffing seems to be a globabl problem.

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Canada's health care system is based on 3 principles: universality, comprehensiveness and equity.

But is a patient in Canada a person or a number?

The prioritization and waiting lines leads me to think the latter. If Canada's government truly believes in these 3 core principles then why does it refuse to reimburse it's citizen's when they opt for medical care outside it's borders? The answer to this, once again, leads me to the latter.

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Universal Health Care will equal less jobs and lower pay. Patient care will ultimately end up suffering whether it be to an underpaid physician or an angry underpaid overworked employees. This whole scheme has been set up to fail so the Social health care system will prevail. Americans will take the bait hook, line and sinker. They don't know enough about european healthcare and "for some reason" think its better.

Scenerio: Patient goes to the Dr. for minor problems a few times in a row, maybe not sick at all. They end up getting denied healthcare b/c they seem to be crazy by the provider, or worse jail, psych facility.

Intergrated Patient Record Data Base Scenerio: Background checks have reveiled that you were prescribed xanax back in 95 and you were seeing a psychiatrist. Can you tell me a little about what was going on in your life then and why it won't affect your job.

That was the worst case "big brother" scenerio of course. My wife is from Romania and she would be happy to tell you about Socialized health care. The hospital is a place you DO NOT want to be. You have to pay each nurse every shift cash so they will provide better care. All surgeries are negotiated behind closed doors. The question is "how much should I pay this Dr.?, did I underpay or overpay?" If you don't have money to buy off "people" god help you. Now we are well ahead of Romania as a society but this Universal "social" healthcare system ultimely leads to this type stuff. Oh on a final note, nursing isn't even considered a profession, its a joke to the people in Europe as a general whole from my experience.

You're comparing ROMANIA to 1st world national healthcare? Wow. I hope you realize how ridiculous this sounds. It's not your fault, I'm just shocked. Sounds like typical American brainwashing to me....

I'm not kidding when I say this.

I'm in Canada, and our staff are highly trained. In fact, perhaps better (not equal to) than the US. Our Care Aids have 8-10 month programs. Some are 12 months (Nursing Assistant). Our LPNs in most provinces (I.e. SK, AB, ON) now must have 2 year diplomas. New RN grads must have 4 year degrees. Our Respiratory Therapists have 3-4 years of education, minimum. Our medical schools are more competitive. Doctors trained in the US cannot automatically work in Canada in most cases without additional testing, but Canadian trained doctors and nurses can work in the US with less hassle.

Compare this to:

-American 'CNA's who have sometimes as little as *5 weeks* to 3 months of school/training.

-American LPNs, who have typically about a year of school.

-American RNs who can work as an RN with only 2 years of school (and a handful of basic pre-reqs).

-American RTs who can have as little as 2 years of schooling.

This is all rather confusing. I would say that it was amusing, but it's rather concerning. ?

I'm not sure what your 'Big Brother' comment was about, do know that Canada actually provides healthcare to everyone that needs it, so you cannot get *denied* healthcare because you have a mental health issue on record. You will be treated for your actual, not perceived, needs. I don't follow. It's not like there is no paper trail for those who are insured in the US either, so I don't follow. It's not like CSIS (our CIA) sits around all day looking to see if Mrs. X has a history of STIs and then sends out memos to all of her prospective employers. What's the concern?

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Canada's health care system is based on 3 principles: universality, comprehensiveness and equity.

But is a patient in Canada a person or a number?

The prioritization and waiting lines leads me to think the latter. If Canada's government truly believes in these 3 core principles then why does it refuse to reimburse it's citizen's when they opt for medical care outside it's borders? The answer to this, once again, leads me to the latter.

Every patient is a number. Even when hidden by 'customer service' propaganda dished out by Big Insurance (yes, we are taught that in orientation too, even with our 'public' healthcare). It doesn't mean that nurses, techs, and doctors don't care, it just means that we have to use common sense.

If a patient WANTS and CHOOSES to go OUTSIDE their country for ELECTIVE treatment (if it wasn't elective it would be done immediately), that is THEIR choice and responsibility to pay.

Why should Canada pay outrageous US healthcare fees for someone who didn't want to wait another month for knee replacement?

The fact is, if a patient needs to go to the US for whatever reason (I.e. To see a world famous specialist for an extremely rare 1 in 10 million disease for example), the government WILL pay for that person's treatment. Because there are no other options.

Again, it all comes down to common sense. With the current obesity crisis and ageing population, why would we pay for people's *elective* (key word) surgery in the US and *completely* cripple our system.

It doesn't make sense, right?

If you want to talk about patients being numbers (rather $), I think that actually American Big Insurance is the place to scrutinize, not Canada. Have you seen the profits those guys make!?

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It's so popular these days to analogously paint profitable entities as Satan. :smackingf

The logic behind non-for-profit hospitals is to provide charity. In studies, for-profit hospitals provide just as much charity work as non-for-profit hospitals. When you factor in the tax revenue generated/not generated, for-profit hospitals do much more for communities than non-for-profit hospitals. Many restaurants, grocery stores, etc... intentionally locate near hospitals. Are they evil also? NO.

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