Holistic Medicines?

  1. What do you think of holistic medicines?

    or Qigong (chi kung).

    Many of the methods used in these claim that they can cure anythign


    even cancers and stuff.


    This is a moslty eastern (mainly chinese i believe) belief system,

    but i just want to know what everyone's opinion is on using non traditional "western" medicine is.




    heres somthing to look at.

    http://shaolin-wahnam.tripod.com/chikung/cancure.html
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  2. 12 Comments

  3. by   P_RN
    Do you mean herbal medicine or the whole complementary medicine thing...accupuncture, meditation, etc? I've had accupuncture and I know it worked for me. I am more cautious with herbs because they are not regulated in their manufacture. They're "dietary supplements" so why can't the FOOD and drug admin check into them?
    At this point in time I do not have confidence that there is a cure for cancer on a web page on the internet....and that all you have to do is follow their advice. I do believe there will be a cure or at least a manageable treatment for cancers.
  4. by   crankyasanoldma
    I'm not a fan of "alternative or complimentary" medicine because there is so much fraud and hyperbole involved.

    You have already hit upon one of the problems in which many varied claims are made (cures everything from acne to HIV to cancer), but the only evidence is a bunch of personal testimonials. Really, anyone can claim anything and not be required to prove it if it's sold as a 'dietary supplement' or whatnot.

    Another issue I have is when 'alternatives' is when the ads use a bunch of sciency-sounding words or explanations that don't make real sense. Sometimes it just sounds like they are making the stuff up. My fave is here 'energy'. It's hard to quantify or prove 'energy' in the alt-med sense.

    Frequently, alt proponents claim that the "medical-pharmacological-industrial complex" is just out "to get" them and that's why they have to be so secretive- it's pretty paranoid. people with nothing to hide make their ingredients, methods, and studies known.

    I do think alternative medicines in particular should be investigated and this is being done, not by alt-med practitioners, but by the US government. Here is a link: http://nccam.nih.gov/

    And you can check http://www.quackwatch.com for some pretty alarming storied of alt-med fraud and deception. More importantly, this site also has information on how to evaluate health claims and determine if you are being BS'd.
  5. by   crankyasanoldma
    I didn't check your link until after I posted. Let me give you the NIH CAM link for cancer: http://cis.nci.nih.gov/fact/9_14.htm

    and also Qigong is addressed at quackwatch here http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...opics/acu.html
    Last edit by crankyasanoldma on Apr 24, '04
  6. by   mrdoc2005
    I was in chiropractic school for 2 years(4 years for BS and then 2 of the 4 required for the DC degree). So realy I was in school 6 years. I was at Life (the largest chiropractic school) and they lost the acceditation so off went my credits. I moved home and decided to do nursing. I had always concidered it in the past.

    Now Life has its acceditation back and I could go back but I love nursing.

    So, I do believe in somethings like chiropractic and accupunture.

    I think it is possible for herbs to cure. After all most drugs contain things from nature. However since their is no regulation in that industry it is buy beware. Plus it seems that most people think if 1 is good then i should take 3.
  7. by   P_RN
    I didn't mean to leave out chiropractic. I didn't know Life had lost their accreditation. When was that? I had my doubts at first but it did help.

    As far as herbal/plant substances we can't forget that many very powerful and lifesaving drugs come from plant sources. Aspirin, digitalis and quinine come to mind.
  8. by   crankyasanoldma
    mrdoc2005 posted
    "So, I do believe in some things like chiropractic..."

    I believe (actually I hate to use that word in this context- I mean, it works or not. It shouldn't be a faith issue) that chiropractic can be therapeutic- much like massage, but I don't believe chiropractic can cure stuff like asthma, allergies, excema, etc., and I'm skeptical about all the subluxation business. I would really like to see CAM's clarified in what they are or are not effective in treating.
    http://nccam.nci.nih.gov/health/chir...c/index.htm#9a
    This is a brief review of the 7 contolled sudies done by NIH/CCam on chiropractic: http://nccam.nci.nih.gov/health/chir...c/index.htm#9a

    From your perspective, do you think the studies were well done and do you agree with the results? Do you think chiropractic can 'cure' diseases? (I'm not being a smart aleck- I really do want to know your opinion). Did you notice a "two schools of thought" regarding chiro when you were studying it (one that sees chiro as a potential cure-all and one that sees it as an adjunct to mainstream medicine)?
  9. by   mrdoc2005
    Quote from crankyasanoldma
    mrdoc2005 posted
    "So, I do believe in some things like chiropractic..."

    I believe (actually I hate to use that word in this context- I mean, it works or not. It shouldn't be a faith issue) that chiropractic can be therapeutic- much like massage, but I don't believe chiropractic can cure stuff like asthma, allergies, excema, etc., and I'm skeptical about all the subluxation business. I would really like to see CAM's clarified in what they are or are not effective in treating.
    http://nccam.nci.nih.gov/health/chir...c/index.htm#9a
    This is a brief review of the 7 contolled sudies done by NIH/CCam on chiropractic: http://nccam.nci.nih.gov/health/chir...c/index.htm#9a

    From your perspective, do you think the studies were well done and do you agree with the results? Do you think chiropractic can 'cure' diseases? (I'm not being a smart aleck- I really do want to know your opinion). Did you notice a "two schools of thought" regarding chiro when you were studying it (one that sees chiro as a potential cure-all and one that sees it as an adjunct to mainstream medicine)?
    When I was at Life (May 01- Oct 02) in my very first class we were told never use the word cure. The main idea of chiropractic is that when a verbra has moved then it is causing pressure to be applied on the spinal cord or on one of the nerves. To me this makes since when you look at a verbra and it alignment with all nerves. Keep in mind that all nerves run through the column at some point. (Facial goes through the occipital or the skull) Also, when you define healthy the dictionary says working at 100% force and disease free (paraphrase, this is close but I know it is off)

    As far as two schools of thought, there is. One is the use of modalities (e-stim, ultrasound, ect…) and the other is called straight (without modalities). If you heard someone, a DC, tell you cure then he/she is a salesman. Thus, I do not believe it is a true cure for anything. I do believe it helps.

    An example of it helping:

    When it was a tech at a local chiropractic office we would get several young children with fluid behind the eardrum. The ped practice would want to do tubes. But, after about 2 weeks (around 6 adjustments) it would go away. As the DC there would say “ I grew up hearing not to stick anything in my ear smaller than my elbow because I would burst my eardrum and now that is what the peds people do with the tubes”.

    Also, there are 16 different methods of chiropractic adjusting that I know of. Most chiropractors pick 2 and focus on mastering them. My favorite is the activator method, which does not involve “popping/cracking” the joint. It uses a small spring loaded device that applies very specific force in a VERY specific area and it does it so fast the muscles do not have time to react to the force thus it takes 1/18th amount of the force need to do a manual (by hand “popping) adjustment. The only problem that I saw as a student with this method is that any DC could but the tool but to “trained” or advance proficiency rated in this method took 2-3 years post grad and 2-3 workshops yearly.

    Sorry to be so long winded but I enjoy hearing myself LOL. If you would like to talk more feel free to email me at mrdoc2005@hotmail.com and please put a subject so I do not delete thinking it was junk.
  10. by   mrdoc2005
    Something I meant to tell you; when I was at Life we did research on AIDS and HIV patients and found that 9 out of ten of those receiving adjustments lived longer, and required less drugs.

    The problem with chiropractic research and why you hear so little about it is founding. When you think about it who pays for most medical research…..drug companies……..who would be hurt by positive research in chiropractic…..drug companies. So, all the research done at Life was paid for by Life or donations from Alumni.

    And from a personal account. I am type I diabetic, when I started chiropractic care I suddenly (within 6 months) needed almost the amount of insulin as before chiropractic care. I do not know if that is the norm I just know that is me.
  11. by   Chibi Baka
    Thank you everyone for the information.

    I was just curious to see how others felt about that area.

    I must say I am alittle curious about acupuncture though.
  12. by   RN MT
    It is interesting to me that there is so little info on this site re CAM (Complementary/Alternative Medicine). I was glad that someone included the NIH site to seg to the CAM office. My personal experience began in 1985 when I "crashed" with chronic fatigue syndrome, developing multiple chemical sensitivities soon after. My reality,and that of others so afflicted to this day, was that conventional med had no help for me. I therefore began years of exploring CAM which ultimately led to my independent practice of nurse massage therapy (You can view my site and find links to much info re CAM on my web site, www.nurses-touch.com)

    As for the problems that are seen with the claims made by companies selling herbs and supplements, there are of course questionable ones as there are in Big Pharma-witness the recent exposes re Neurontin, Vioxx and anti-depressants where the morbidity and mortality incurred, when measured in numbers would indicate a public health crisis if it were a pathogen. But the numbers of cases in which herbs and supplements have caused deaths are microscopic compared to those of iatrogenic caused mortality.

    Andrew Weill, MD who has a web site and who teaches other physicians in Integrative Medicine (the combination of conventional and evidenced based CAM approaches) wrote an article as to why herbs, etc can help so many different conditions. The reason is that they support the body's ability to function as a whole instead of treating a symptom. So, although critical thinking supports a high level of suspicion, I encourage learning more about holistic phliosophy. Florence Nightingale stated, "Nature alone cures. The task of nursing is to put the patient in the best condition for nature to act upon him." Nursing is inherently holistic. Medicine's credo is to first do no harm. I maintain that to date, herbs and supplements are doing less harm.
  13. by   mitchsmom
    I think people should be cautious about all substances that they put into their bodies... whether sanctioned by the gods of the FDA or not, as prescription, OTC, alternative, herbs, or whatever. Some drugs we consider mainstream can cause damage and some unusual herbs we consider weird may be helpful and vice versa. I say avoid all of it unless really really needed & be educated in in any case. I think people tend to trust all of it too much and forget to consider that everything has a chance of side effects, sometimes serious.
    As far as alternative treatments and practitioners, I think people should again keep an open mind in all directions instead of eschewing anyone. And that works in both directions... maybe moderation is the key.
    Last edit by mitchsmom on Jan 30, '05
  14. by   PamUK
    I am very sceptical if a product is advertised as an "alternative" for serious diseases such as cancer. There are many quacks and fraudsters out there.

    My friend had cancer of the oesophagus, had chemo and relapsed. He bought Sharks Fin tablets over the internet, which cost him thousands of . They came with a book with the so called research... actually stated that it was a cure.. it was a joke! They made him vomit and he stank of fish, but he stuck with it... needless to say he died more or less when the conventional doctors thought he would

    I dont mind if a product is advertised as complementary or supportive... to be taken alongside any conventional treatment. If it helps the patients well-being, then so be it.

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