baptizing a patient???

[mtnmom]

There is a companion thread in this forum about religion and nursing that made me think of this...

have any of you ever heard of anyone baptizing a patient or know anyone that has???

I once worked with a nurse who had worked PICU and she kept holy water in her locker...had used it once or twice on her patients...apparently a lay baptism is permissible in the Catholic church if a priest or deacon is not available. All one need do is sprinkle the water on the person and say "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit".

It sounds reasonable to me....and I can't say that I would not do it if I had an infant or child in grave condition and knew that the parents were either not involved with the child or had no religious affiliation. Of course, if the parents had religious beliefs, and they were other than Christian, I would not dream of doing it - I would fully respect their belief system.

I just wanted to open some dialogue here on the subject....please be nice! I just really want to hear what you all think.

[palesarah]

Here is an excellent site that allows one to see and compare practices of folks of different faiths.

http://www.biblehistory.com/BeliefsPage.html

That's interesting info, thanks for the link.

[Jolie, BSN]

There is also a certain irony here.

The Catholic Church clearly states that nonCatholics (even if Christian) are not to take Eucharist within the Catholic church...that it is reserved for acknowledged Catholics in good grace.

Yet, noncatholics (even if not Christian) are expected/competent to perform "lay" Baptism.

This is not entirely true. There are special circumstances in which it is acceptable and permissible for a non-Catholic to participate in Eucharist.

That said, I understand your point that it seems inconsistent that non-Catholics are allowed to baptize. They are not, however, EXPECTED to do so in the eyes of the Catholic church. If a nurse is being pressured by her institution to perform a baptism against her will, I understand her objection, and would encourage her to refuse in favor of another willing person. But it is incorrect to believe that the Catholic Church in any way imposes this "responsibility" on unwilling participants.

Just FYI, non-Catholics are also allowed to stand as witnesses to a Baptism, in lieu of Catholic Godparents. My daughter's "Godfather" is her uncle, a devout Baptist.

[LydiaNN]

I wouldn't do it. The religion I was raised in would consider such a thing sacrieligious (which I happened to find out many years ago, after I told my Sunday School teacher, the minister's wife, about my friend's mother baptizing her in their kitchen sink) and given that I now have no religious beliefs, it would be even more so, IMHO. What makes water "holy" by the way? Is it specially blessed?

[mtnmom]

This is the piece I was responding to. It was an either/or thing that struck me. It was like if you were of another religious affiliation than christian, than baptism would be OK. That's not so and I needed to clarify that part. Certainly, if a christian family found comfort in the ritual, it should be done.

hello, My original post was perhaps not very well worded. I absolutely did not mean that it was an either/or thing - that if a family was not Christian then the child needed to be baptized. I just want to set the record straight. I have a huge issue with someone imposing their beliefs on others.

I would never do something like this unless asked by the family and a priest could not get there in time - then I would be comfortable doing it but under no other circumstance.

And yes, I am a Catholic, although I was raised Protestant but have studied many religions. I do not profess to know everything about any religion. I do not discuss religion with anyone at work unless specifically approached and then I try to be as brief, yet polite, as possible.

I just brought this all up because another post made me think about what my former coworker told me that she had done. And I never said that I would do it...just did not say that I would never do it.

If my original post was misconstrued or offended anyone I am sorry.

[mtnmom]

I am a catholic and even so I don't think I would ever be comfortable baptizing a baby. I don't think that my creator would deny a baby entrance into heaven just because he wasn't baptized.

I had a nun in the 4th grade teach us how to baptize a baby in case we ever needed to (because their souls would "dwell in Purgatory"--nice thing to tell a kid--this was the same woman who crushed me when she told us there's no such thing as Dog Heaven). Anway, I feel the same--God's not keeping any baby out of heaven.

I do not think that an unbaptized baby would be denied entrance into heaven either. I definitely believe, though that Heaven has some sort of place for dogs, cats, and all the animals....and I am holding on to that thought.

[sbic56, BSN, RN]

I do not think that an unbaptized baby would be denied entrance into heaven either. I definitely believe, though that Heaven has some sort of place for dogs, cats, and all the animals....and I am holding on to that thought.

If there is a heaven, no loving God would have it any other way, right?!

[sbic56, BSN, RN]

hello, My original post was perhaps not very well worded. I absolutely did not mean that it was an either/or thing - that if a family was not Christian then the child needed to be baptized. I just want to set the record straight. I have a huge issue with someone imposing their beliefs on others.

I would never do something like this unless asked by the family and a priest could not get there in time - then I would be comfortable doing it but under no other circumstance.

And yes, I am a Catholic, although I was raised Protestant but have studied many religions. I do not profess to know everything about any religion. I do not discuss religion with anyone at work unless specifically approached and then I try to be as brief, yet polite, as possible.

I just brought this all up because another post made me think about what my former coworker told me that she had done. And I never said that I would do it...just did not say that I would never do it.

If my original post was misconstrued or offended anyone I am sorry.

OK...TY for clarifying the either/or thing....Sue

[caroladybelle, BSN, RN]

This is not entirely true. There are special circumstances in which it is acceptable and permissible for a non-Catholic to participate in Eucharist.

Just FYI, non-Catholics are also allowed to stand as witnesses to a Baptism, in lieu of Catholic Godparents. My daughter's "Godfather" is her uncle, a devout Baptist.

That is interesting.

I have been a bridesmaid in two "traditional" Catholic weddings. In the first one, the priest got very irate that a nonCatholic was the maid of honor and wanted the Bride to "reassign" me. The issue came up when he found out that I could not take Eucharist.

Said friend also asked if I could just do it "for show", ticking off both me and the priest. He was very adament that I could not take Eucharist and should not have even been in the wedding party of a good Catholic family. He also made a big ado about me not kneeling.

The next episode occurred when I was merely a bridesmaid. The priest asked at rehearsal, how many of the Party were Catholic, and told us that those of us that were not Catholic should not partake of Eucharist, as it was only for professed and confessed Catholics. He was kind enough to arrange things so that I would not be required or stick out like a sore thumb, when everyone knelt (as I do not do so for religious issues).

Virtually every Catholic service that I have ever attended made it very clear that nonCatholics cannot partake of the Eucharist. And I have been to a lot of Catholic services.

What are the "special circumstances" if I may ask?

[Jolie, BSN]

What are the "special circumstances" if I may ask?

I'm sorry you were treated so shabbily by the first priest. That reflects badly on our entire Church.

The circumstances are quite narrow, and do not include participation in the Eucharist at a wedding, or weekly Mass. I'm probably not going to get it exactly right, but this is the "gist" of it:

A non-catholic may receive Eucharist in certain circumstances. S/he must first identify himself to the priest as a non-Catholic, who is free of serious sin. (If necessary, a confession may be made.) There must be extenuating circumstances which make it impossible for the participant to receive Holy Communion in a Church of his own faith. There must also be a dire need to receive Holy Communion, such as serious illness, impending natural disaster, war, etc.

There was a bit of a hubbub a few years ago when Pres. Clinton attended a Catholic Mass and stood to receive Communion. The priest served him, apparently believing it inappropirate to deny Communion to a participant in Mass, even though he was clearly not Catholic, and the above circumstances did not exist. The talking heads on TV news debated for a few days whether or not the priest should have by-passed him. The truth of the matter is that there are probably non-Catholics who receive Communion at virtually every Mass, but since they are not known to the priest, he has no reason to deny them. Clinton was the exception, since his faith was well-known.

[1Tulip]

I think Premenrs had it right. If, in extremis, and there is no one around with the ecclesiastical credentials, it would be morally and professionally appropriate to administer the sacrament of Baptism. It is done for the pt's welfare and repose, not ours. I agree that nurses need to be mindful of the pts/family's religious context, which is why we should ask them about their beliefs and preferences before such a crisis can arise.

Can just any nurse do a baptism??? I believe that most Christian denominations hold that the baptism itself confers G-d's grace to the recipient, not the person conducting the baptism. Thus, G-d is not impeded in any way by the unbelief of the "baptizer".

However, the Eucarist is a little different. Catholics are not the only Christians who "fence" the Communion table. (I'm Presbyterian, and administration of Communion in our church is preceded by a word of caution and explanation to the congregation. We can't/don't require membership in our church, but we ask those who recieve to examine themselves carefully.) This custom is drawn from Paul's instructions to the Church in Corinth, (a very rowdy, unsolemn bunch) that recieving the Lord's body "unworthily" (i.e., in unbelief, or while in open, unrepentant, flagrant, willful sin) can actually be harmful. Such a person is "guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord." "For this reason many amoung you are weak and sick and a number of you [have died]." The RC practice of limiting Eucarist to those who have been educated and examined in their doctrines is their effort to obey the apostolic teaching.

Now, that's probably way more than anyone wanted to know. I apologise. But I wanted to explain how Baptism and Communion differ.

I've never been in any baptizing circumstance. But, I've had pts want me to pray the Our Father with them. I've always tried to make sure I know what their front sheet says about their religion and if a Catholic pt is slipping away I ask their families if they want Extreme Unction/Last Rites.

I think that's sort of normal nursing care.