Police use excessive force, ER docs say- What do ER nurses think

[rjflyn]

Heres the article link. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081224/hl_nm/us_police_er;_ylt=AsdEgR5vSvYsZBHgBHfkzcOs0NUE

My take is often as belligerent and uncooperative as they often are when the police have them in the ED I can only imagine how they are when they are being arrested. Having worked EMS as well as ED i can tell you the idiots being arrested often bring a lot of their own troubles on themselves. Yeah there are rouge cops out there, but if you spend a weekend in my ED and crap that come out of this guys and gals mouths you would know they are where they are.

Rj

[I_LOVE_TRAUMA, RN]

Won't get into specifics, but from what I've seen in my Level 1 ER, the cops are just doing what needs to be done. They are very protective of us, and I am very grateful for it. Some of the things that the inmates try while they are there-well you just can't be too careful! We are required by law to treat everyone and sometimes that can be pretty scary! We must remember, these cops deal with these guys everyday, a lot more than we know happens. I have taken care of people who have raped, tortured, and beaten their own children/mothers to death, and feel no remorse for it-they would kill me or one of those cops in a heartbeat. Many of them are only in the ER so that they can try to escape. I have been threatened so horribly, so many times (and I am known for my sweet, calming demeanor) that the cops at my place won't even let me walk outside for a breath of fresh air without one of them going with me. Check out some of the stories on the ENA website related to ER docs/nurses getting assulted-the statistics may surprise you. Out of the the 20 something stafff members that I work with routinely, not one of us has not been hurt at one point or another, and I know 2 who will never be able to work again. One of them just had her 7th reconstructive surgery on her face, inmate was shackled and 2 cops were in the room when this assult occurred.

[Iam46yearsold]

I for one support the police. One of my buddies at work that I also golf with. Got kicked in the mouth by a handcuffed women. He lost 3 teeth. Then she nearly bit an officers finger off. So when they piled on her, nothing was excessive. They did save the officers finger. That would have messed her golf swing up for sure. Besides she is a friend of mine. Good thing I wasnt near by.

[TraumaNurseRN]

I think it depends on what has occured. In general, I have never seen excessive force used but rather force used to handle the current situation. Just the other day I had a patient who was verbally agressive towards me, when the doctor came in he became physically aggressive as well. It took 3 security men the doc myself and another nurse to handle and then medicate. First line....Is to protect yourself.

[BabyLady, BSN, RN]

On the flip side, I sometimes don't think that these realty-based cop programs shows police officers in the best light.

I understand that sometimes the clips are edited, but in the ones that are not, and the camera view has not changed, I have seen too many clips where a suspect is complying with the officer's request, and for some reason they body slam him to the ground, and it looks like they are practically breaking their arm putting handcuffs on them...THEN they tell the guy to hold still...but it's hard to breathe when you are face down on hard pavement and someone that is 200 + lbs has their knee in your back with their full weight sitting on you.

I have seen tasers used for similar situation.

I have a lot of respect for police officers, but at the same time, I think some police officers cause their own problems with cursing at suspects and the sarcasm...which again, is not necessary. You pull someone over who is the least little bit mentally off and ruffle his feathers b/c the officer wants an ego trip for the day...and then he runs crying that some 'nutcase' shot him.

I'm not saying that's right, but I'm just saying that some officers cause their own problems as well.

[TraumaNurseRN]

On the flip side, I sometimes don't think that these realty-based cop programs shows police officers in the best light.

I understand that sometimes the clips are edited, but in the ones that are not, and the camera view has not changed, I have seen too many clips where a suspect is complying with the officer's request, and for some reason they body slam him to the ground, and it looks like they are practically breaking their arm putting handcuffs on them...THEN they tell the guy to hold still...but it's hard to breathe when you are face down on hard pavement and someone that is 200 + lbs has their knee in your back with their full weight sitting on you.

I have seen tasers used for similar situation.

I have a lot of respect for police officers, but at the same time, I think some police officers cause their own problems with cursing at suspects and the sarcasm...which again, is not necessary. You pull someone over who is the least little bit mentally off and ruffle his feathers b/c the officer wants an ego trip for the day...and then he runs crying that some 'nutcase' shot him.

I'm not saying that's right, but I'm just saying that some officers cause their own problems as well.

I think a criminal is a criminal, and the police have learned through experience what works and what doesn't and the philosophy of safety to self first applies to them just as it does to the drug seeker in the ER angry and abusive towards staff when narcs are refused. I wouldn't begin to try and judge a police officer for their decisions to use force. If force is needed, it's needed. Koodos to the officers in our city. If yiou need cuffs and are not immediately doing what they say to do....force should be used. No brainer, if a cop tells you to lay down hands where they can see them and you do not comply....use force. :yeah:whoohoo to the fine police officers!

[Atheos]

I think a criminal is a criminal, and the police have learned through experience what works and what doesn't and the philosophy of safety to self first applies to them just as it does to the drug seeker in the ER angry and abusive towards staff when narcs are refused. I wouldn't begin to try and judge a police officer for their decisions to use force. If force is needed, it's needed. Koodos to the officers in our city. If yiou need cuffs and are not immediately doing what they say to do....force should be used. No brainer, if a cop tells you to lay down hands where they can see them and you do not comply....use force. :yeah:whoohoo to the fine police officers!

Yup, and what if they tell you to lay down and you COMPLY. Then they decide to shoot you in the back???

A criminal is a criminal right???

[BabyLady, BSN, RN]

I think a criminal is a criminal, and the police have learned through experience what works and what doesn't and the philosophy of safety to self first applies to them just as it does to the drug seeker in the ER angry and abusive towards staff when narcs are refused. I wouldn't begin to try and judge a police officer for their decisions to use force. If force is needed, it's needed. Koodos to the officers in our city. If yiou need cuffs and are not immediately doing what they say to do....force should be used. No brainer, if a cop tells you to lay down hands where they can see them and you do not comply....use force. :yeah:whoohoo to the fine police officers!

Sorry, I disagree. We live in a society where someone is innocent until proven guilty. A "hunch" isn't probable cause. Good lawyers have proven that in court over and over again.

That doesn't give a police officer the right to use physical force on someone because they are two seconds slower in reaction time than you would like.

I never stated in anything I wrote applied to those that did not comply. Anyone, innocent or not, pulled over has to comply with certain protocols that is for the safety of the accused as well as the officer.

I am talking about those that ARE complying.

Patients that are angry and yelling don't bother me...that just comes with the job sometimes. If it bothered me at all, I would just quit now.

[TraumaNurseRN]

Sorry, I disagree. We live in a society where someone is innocent until proven guilty. A "hunch" isn't probable cause. Good lawyers have proven that in court over and over again.

That doesn't give a police officer the right to use physical force on someone because they are two seconds slower in reaction time than you would like.

I never stated in anything I wrote applied to those that did not comply. Anyone, innocent or not, pulled over has to comply with certain protocols that is for the safety of the accused as well as the officer.

I am talking about those that ARE complying.

Patients that are angry and yelling don't bother me...that just comes with the job sometimes. If it bothered me at all, I would just quit now.

what nursing specialty do you work?

[Iam46yearsold]

This is all interesting for the differing points of view.

Excessive force or not.

My father was at a Demonstration at USC in the old hippie days and he mouthed off to an officer who clubbed his head and laid a big flap over, that took a lot of repair work. My father would be the first to tell you he deserved for what he said. That is wasnt excessive. He never told me what he said to that officer.

But values are different nowadays

[Not_A_Hat_Person, RN]

I think a criminal is a criminal, and the police have learned through experience what works and what doesn't and the philosophy of safety to self first applies to them

Here in Boston, we've had a rash of police shooting unarmed civilians, including killing a passenger in a car they were pursuing, and shooting into a crowd after a Sox game. The cops got off evey time. Okay, there was a cvil case in the Sox crowd shooting, but only because the victim was White.

When Black kids are taught to only pull over where there are witnesses, because you never know, and not all cop cars have working cameras, you can't deny that police brutality is a problem.

Who watches the watchman?

[rjflyn, ASN, RN]

The thing about it is the kind of person that it takes to be an ED nurse and a police officer are not really that far off. The biggest is people skills, leave out the actual pt care for us, law enforcement for them and in ways we are much alike- why do you think so many ED nurses are married to police officers.

That said I personally think with the drug and crime problem this country has coupled with the advent of the taser and pepper sprays we are lucky. I would think we would be seeing many more shot perpetrators if not for those options.

You also have to add the fact that in my career live time i.e. 20 years now, you mental health patients went from living someplace to being on the street. Unfortunately the police often times treat these people just like another criminal unless they have been specially trained as well. And we know how that works out, they can be more combative than most.

Rj

[spookynurse, RN]

Hmm, depends on the observer. I work in a level 2 trauma center and I used to work on nights. It was crazy when the Legal BAs would trickle in. We would know when the bars closed because the line for them would be long. Anyways I think cops have a good hard job. They're out there putting their lives on the line every time they step foot out on the streets to try and keep my city safe.

I used to think excessive force in some cases but i wasn't out there when the person was being detained. People can get violent. Nowadays people are packing guns and shooting other people over the stupidest things (such as the guy who shot another in a theatre for making noise) What are they going to do to the cop who is trying to detain or follow up on a lead? At that point when the detainee has a gun and threatens to use it..it changes the scenery...the cops now shift into a different mode called survival and protection of others..so be it. And if it means extra people on this guy so be it.

Cops also have to be careful of crossing that fine line because if they do and the detainee has an injury...they sue and win, nevermind he was trying to resist arrest. But there are different circumstances.

So when they come in, cussing, spitting, wearing the beekeeper hat, being belligerent...what else am I supposed to think?

Lastly my ongoing joke when people would come in for a medical clearance and it involved a dog bite I would look at the cops with a straight face and ask them if they ever fed the dog. Sometimes a laugh..sometimes not but in these instances I understand if there is no humor at this point in time...