DNP required soon? - page 8

"The American Association of Colleges of Nursing (AACN) has recently released a position statement calling for the Doctor of Nursing Practice (DNP) degree to be the terminal degree awarded for... Read More

  1. by   wtbcrna
    Quote from BuddhaGuy
    I've just started in CRNA school, and will likely pursue the DNPA before I graduate, but I can't *imagine* ever introducing myself as "doctor". If I do get the DNPA it won't be because I like collecting letters after my name, and certainly not for the prestige that may or may not come attached to the title. I will be extremely happy just being a CRNA.

    Being a middle aged male ICU nurse, I frequently got (especially older) patients asking if I'm a doctor. This was in spite of the huge white on blue letters "RN" hanging below my badge. I usually jokingly tell them "No, I'm not a doctor. I work for a living!"

    BG
    FYI: It is a Doctorate of Nurse Anesthesia Practice or DNAP not a DNPA.
  2. by   BuddhaGuy
    Quote from wtbcrna
    FYI: It is a Doctorate of Nurse Anesthesia Practice or DNAP not a DNPA.
    Sorry, fubmle fingres... DNAP is harder to type than DNPA (that's my story anyway)

    BG
  3. by   remifentanil
    Almost all CRNAs are not happy with the move to DNAP or whatever it is called.
    The move to this was a result of the AANA moving closer to nursey nurse organizations. CRNA school is, at the masters level, more clinical and disdactic hours than any other APN program..the doctorate adds NOTHING to the profession. It was driven by nurses who like alphabet soup after their names.. you know..xxxx.x.xxxx ADN BSN MSN CLP CMA CCRN BFD EIEIO.

    We need to distance ourselves from such trivial concerns... we are the oldest, most respected, highest paid and most independent of all nursing subspecialities... by a long shot. we should not let the rest of the nursing community drag us into silly ego concerns.
  4. by   SuperSixEightMD
    Quote from DIGNOUT
    Dentists at my institution introduce themselves as "Doctor" if they are visiting a patient on consult in CICU. Are they misleading patients?

    A dentist introducing himself/herself as "doctor" is not misleading patients. Not even remotely.

    There's a huge difference between dentistry and nursing that you're not taking into account.

    The practice of dentistry, like the practice of medicine, is always practiced at the doctorate level. It is simply not possible to practice dentistry without a doctoral degree. Similarly, it's not possible to practice medicine without a medical degree. (PA's can "practice medicine", but only under the supervision of someone with a doctoral degree). And someone practicing medicine, dentistry, podiatry, or optometry is, without exception, a doctor in that particular field.

    Nursing, in contrast, is not a doctorate-level profession. The DNP degree is, for lack of a better word, an enhancement of the nursing degree. But DNPs are still nurses. Hence, a DNP introducing himself/herself to patients as "doctor" will lead the patient to believe that they are a doctor of some sort.

    I mean, let's face it. Being a "doctor of nursing" is rather odd. And no patient, at least not now, is going to understand what this means. They are going to assume that the DNP introducing himself/herself as "doctor" is actually a doctor, and not a nurse.

    So, to sum it up, a physician is a doctor. A dentist is a doctor. A podiatrist is a doctor. An optometrist is a doctor. A nurse with a doctoral degree in nursing practice is not a doctor.
  5. by   wtbcrna
    Quote from SuperSixEightMD
    So, to sum it up, a physician is a doctor. A dentist is a doctor. A podiatrist is a doctor. An optometrist is a doctor. A nurse with a doctoral degree in nursing practice is not a doctor.
    No a physician is a physician, a podiatrist is a podiatrist, and an optometrist is an optometrist. Anyone can have a doctorate it is degree nothing more nothing less. I work with surgeons, podiatrists, and dentists sometimes all in the same day. How is a patient to know which "Dr." is which unless the individual explains it to the patient. It is up to the individual to identify themselves and their profession i.e. Hi, I am Dr. Smith your Surgeon/Dentist/Podiatrist or if a nurse has earned their doctorate and chooses to be called "Dr." then it is up to him or her to identify themselves as "Dr. Smith your nurse".

    How many patients do you actually think know and understand that podiatrists and optometrists didn't goto medical school, but that is okay if patients think they are physicians when they call themselves Doctor?

    Heaven forbid that a physician actually has to introduce themselves as a physician since there is now pharmacists, OT, ST, PT, psychologists, Dentists, and Nurses that all have their Doctorates now. Despite what some physicians think they don't have a monopoly on the title Doctor.
  6. by   BCRNA
    I think the real problem about calling nurses "doctor" comes from jealosy from physicians, plus fear of loss of control of power and money. They feel they have sacrificed more and deserve the title. Whereas nurses with the title have not given up much, their opinion not mine. Physicians have sacrificed a large portion of their life to become physicians, the years of school and 80 hour work weeks. They have lost out on many social oppurtunities and have had to delay many things in life. They don't understand what other professionals have gone through to get where they are, and just assume that it is inferior to their experience.

    It also takes away some of their perceived power. Now every person at the health care "table" has a doctorate. They are no longer "captain of the ship" in every aspect of healtcare. When at a board meeting discussing policies, every other person there will most likely have a "Dr" in front of their name. If physicians would be completely honest, many would say what they really fear is NP's or CRNA's taking their job oppurtunities. Most will only say they oppose it for "patient safety" in public though.

    I would never introduce myself as Dr. SoAndSo, but others have earned the right to do so if they wish. As long as they give their job role afterwards. If physicians were so worried about patients not being able to understand, why do so many physicians speak to patients in terms that the patient can understand? Though this is a completely different thread that can go on forever. Medical schools don't teach their students how to communicate with people. I am amazed how many physicians will constantly use medical jargon and several 5 syllable words to explain something to patients, and then have the nerve to chart they explained the subject in terms the patient could understand in their notes. My main point is patient understanding is not really such a big deal for them--except on this topic.

    A doctorate in itself isn't going to add anything to anesthesia, but most anesthesia programs have almost the same semester hours as doctoral programs already. And it takes longer to get a CRNA than it does a PharmD, I say this because the minimum amount of time for PharmD is six years versus almost 8 for CRNA's. Though many PharmD's have 8 also, no previous degree before a PharmD is required yet.

    And entry level nursing is not a doctorate level professon, advanced practice nursing is. Many NP and CRNA programs have almost the same amount of requirements as a doctoral program. Most are two to three times longer than ANY other master's degree. IMO A master's degree in any advanced nursing practice is a much bigger accomplishement than any other master's degree--in terms of requirements and time committment. My anesthesia program actually has more semester hours than the PharmD, DPT, and optometrist program at the school. And all of them introduce themselves as doctor.

    I think advanced practice nurses have operated at the clinical doctorate level for years, it is about time it is recognized as such. I will admit that the switch is more for political reasons than improving clinical skills. Going back to school for a DNP or DNAP will not improve my clinical skills, I already stay atop new advancements and research. The only improvement would be in forming policies and such administrative activities. And the fact that the general public always assumes "Dr" equals higher education and more likely to know what they are talking about. It isn't right, but the general public always asks "And are you a doctor?" when determing if the person is suited to answer a question.

    Nurses are not using the title to pretend to be physicians, they are doing it to show their personal accomplishments in their field. Nurses have always had to defend themselves as an academically worthy profession. Thats where credential overkill got started. Nurses had to justify why they belonged in a college to other academics in other fields. I disagree with many things the profession has done as a whole, but it is worthy of doctoral level education of its advanced practioners. Including its educators, administrators, CNS's, and all other advanced practice specialties.
  7. by   SuperSixEightMD
    Quote from wtbcrna
    No a physician is a physician, a podiatrist is a podiatrist, and an optometrist is an optometrist. Anyone can have a doctorate it is degree nothing more nothing less. I work with surgeons, podiatrists, and dentists sometimes all in the same day. How is a patient to know which "Dr." is which unless the individual explains it to the patient. It is up to the individual to identify themselves and their profession i.e. Hi, I am Dr. Smith your Surgeon/Dentist/Podiatrist or if a nurse has earned their doctorate and chooses to be called "Dr." then it is up to him or her to identify themselves as "Dr. Smith your nurse".

    How many patients do you actually think know and understand that podiatrists and optometrists didn't goto medical school, but that is okay if patients think they are physicians when they call themselves Doctor?

    Heaven forbid that a physician actually has to introduce themselves as a physician since there is now pharmacists, OT, ST, PT, psychologists, Dentists, and Nurses that all have their Doctorates now. Despite what some physicians think they don't have a monopoly on the title Doctor.
    I think you're missing the point here. Let me try to re-iterate.

    When you take the average patient, put them in any health care setting, and have someone in a long white coat come up to the patient and introduce themselves as "Doctor Smith", the patient is going to assume that this person in the long white coat is either a physician, a dentist, a podiatrist, or an optometrist...depending on the health care setting.

    Why is this? Because everybody, without exception, knows that practicing medicine, dentistry, podiatry, and optometry require doctoral-level degrees. Even the average, relatively clueless patient, knows that practitioners of these fields are doctors of some sort.

    Nobody recognizes nurses as doctors. A DNP is still a nurse, and while he/she may have a doctoral degree, he/she is still practicing nursing.....a profession that nobody attributes to anyone with the title of "doctor" in a clinical setting.

    Or better yet, let me put it to you this way....

    Let's say a DNP comes up to a patient in a health care setting of any kind and says, "Hello, I'm Dr. Wilson. Do you know what kind of doctor I am?" What answer do you think the patient will give?

    The patient might say, "you're a medicine doctor" or "you're a dentist" or "you're a podiatrist" or "you're an optometrist". But there's no way in the universe the patient will expect that they're about to be treated by a nurse. And therein lies the problem with DNPs introducing themselves to their patients as "doctor" in a healthcare setting. They will not only be allowing the patient to be unaware that they're being treated by a nurse, they'll be inadvertently tricking their patient into thinking their being treated by a doctor of some sort.

    The other thing I'll point out here is that physicians, dentists, podiatrists, and optometrists....as doctors....are experts in their respective fields. A DNP, while technically practicing nursing, is effectively practicing medicine. And I don't think anyone would argue that a DNP possesses some expertise in medicine beyond what a physician does.
  8. by   wtbcrna
    Quote from SuperSixEightMD
    I think you're missing the point here. Let me try to re-iterate.

    .
    No you are missing the point, and don't know patients very well at all.

    1. 90+% patients don't realize that optometrists and podiatrists aren't physicians and didn't goto medical school.

    2. A PharmD/pharmicist, PT/OT/ST that have their doctorates are experts in their fields, but from your posts I think you would have a problem with these professionals calling themselves Doctors also even if they identified themselves as pharmacists, physical therapists etc.

    3. No one knows what kind of Doctor someone is unless they tell them. This includes physicians, nurses, and other healthcare professionals. Anyone that uses the title Doctor needs to further identify themselves, if someone walks up to the nurses station or in a patient's room and says I am Dr. Smith you don't have a clue who this person is unless they further identify themselves. This person could be a physician/PT/OT/Optometrist/podiatrist/pharmacist/PhD(someone could be there working on research)/MD-PhD/nurse etc.

    When a physician introduces themselves they need to state I am Dr. Smith your anesthesiologist/surgeon/FP/IM/ID etc. Just because someone has earned a medical doctorate/DO it hardly makes them qualified to provide patient care. Would you want a MD-PhD who hasn't gone through residency diagnosing and treating you or your family, an FP doing your wife/sisters C-section, or a 1st year resident being left alone to do you or your families minor procedure/anesthesia etc (there is a reason mortality rates are higher in summers at teaching hospitals and it isn't from doctoral prepared nurses calling themselves doctors).

    How many times has an intern or 1st year resident introduced themselves as Dr. Smith I am a 1st year resident doing my 1st anesthesia or this is my 1st month of residency and my staff is asleep while I do your complete work up. It doesn't matter that someone has a name badge that says pg-1 etc. These titles don't mean anything to most patients.

    There are many things that are deceptive to patients, but it isn't the person that states I am Dr. Smith your Nurse.

    Physicians need to get over their mentality of entitlement. Believe it or not there is no other profession out there trying to usurp physicians. APNs and other healthcare professionals just want to practice to the utmost of their training, and research has shown time and again that APNs can do this just as effectively as physicians in the areas that we are trained without detriment to patient care or safety. When nurses provide the same care as physicians it is a practice of nursing not medicine. Physicians don't have a monopoly on everything in healthcare that many physicians think they do.

    4. If anyone has missed the point it is you.
  9. by   stanman1968
    There are pharD, and DPT, are they practicing medicine? To make this clear so clear that it can not (I hope to god) be misunderstood. The term doctor refers to an educational degree period, got it? Physician is the job title, sheesh.
  10. by   SuperSixEightMD
    Quote from wtbcrna
    No you are missing the point, and don't know patients very well at all.
    There's no need to get confrontational here. Let us try and keep this discussion civil, focused on the topic at hand, and free from personal attacks and attacks on eachothers' competence. Ok?

    1. 90+% patients don't realize that optometrists and podiatrists aren't physicians and didn't goto medical school.
    Doesn't matter. What they do know about optometrists and podiatrists is that they are doctors of some sort.

    2. A PharmD/pharmicist, PT/OT/ST that have their doctorates are experts in their fields, but from your posts I think you would have a problem with these professionals calling themselves Doctors also even if they identified themselves as pharmacists, physical therapists etc.
    I've never seen a pharmacist refer to himself/herself as "doctor" to a patient. In fact, I have yet to see a pharmacist interact with a patient in a hospital or clinic setting, where there might be confusion on the patient's part as to who the person in the long white coat is. But yes, if in a clinical setting a pharmacist walked up to a patient and said, "Hi, I'm Dr. Wilson", then yes, I'd have a problem with it.

    3. No one knows what kind of Doctor someone is unless they tell them. This includes physicians, nurses, and other healthcare professionals.
    Patients make assumptions. Patients assume that anyone identifying themselves as "doctor So-and-so" is a physician, dentist, optometrist, or podiatrist, depending on the setting.

    Anyone that uses the title Doctor needs to further identify themselves, if someone walks up to the nurses station or in a patient's room and says I am Dr. Smith you don't have a clue who this person is unless they further identify themselves. This person could be a physician/PT/OT/Optometrist/podiatrist/pharmacist/PhD(someone could be there working on research)/MD-PhD/nurse etc.
    Like I said. All patients make the assumption I described above. But few patients, if any, ever contemplate the possibility that the person in the long white coat introducing himself as "doctor So-and-so" is actually a nurse.

    When a physician introduces themselves they need to state I am Dr. Smith your anesthesiologist/surgeon/FP/IM/ID etc.
    Yes, we should do this, and most of the time we do. That aside, once we introduce ourselves to our patient as "doctor", pt's know we are a doctor, and not a nurse (with or without a DNP).

    Just because someone has earned a medical doctorate/DO it hardly makes them qualified to provide patient care. Would you want a MD-PhD who hasn't gone through residency diagnosing and treating you or your family, an FP doing your wife/sisters C-section, or a 1st year resident being left alone to do you or your families minor procedure/anesthesia etc (there is a reason mortality rates are higher in summers at teaching hospitals and it isn't from doctoral prepared nurses calling themselves doctors).
    I read that article to which you are referencing, and I hope you realize that it's based on very dubious statistics. I'd urge you to read some of the responses to it, and you'll see where I'm coming from.

    That aside, I'm not sure I understand how this relates to who calls themselves "doctor", but I'll address it anyway. Physicians are not allowed to practice medicine without having, at a bare minimum, one year of residency. And quite frankly, no hospital would ever grant privileges to a physician who hasn't completed a minimum three-year residency program. So when you go to a hospital as a patient and someone walks up to you and introduces himself/herself as "doctor", you know they've been through four years of medical, dental, or podiatry school....plus residency.

    How many times has an intern or 1st year resident introduced themselves as Dr. Smith I am a 1st year resident doing my 1st anesthesia or this is my 1st month of residency and my staff is asleep while I do your complete work up. It doesn't matter that someone has a name badge that says pg-1 etc. These titles don't mean anything to most patients.
    I think you have, in your mind, concluded that medical school is an entirely useless process that provides no material training whatsoever, and that first year residents are unleashed on patients without the least bit of supervision from senior residents and attendings.

    There are many things that are deceptive to patients, but it isn't the person that states I am Dr. Smith your Nurse.
    This is a valid point, but "I am Dr. Smith, your nurse" is more so. First off, residents are required to introduce themselves as residents -- without exception. Second, residents are a part of many hospital settings, and patients by and large are aware that they exist and interact with patients. But for a nurse to introduce themselves as doctor is a misrepresentation of their role. Put differently, residents are doctors, and specifying that their residents simply specifies their degree of training as doctors. So, a resident who forgets to say he's a resident has at least gotten the "doctor" part right. DNPs are not doctors, and for that reason they shouldn't be introducing themselves as doctors.

    Physicians need to get over their mentality of entitlement. Believe it or not there is no other profession out there trying to usurp physicians. APNs and other healthcare professionals just want to practice to the utmost of their training, and research has shown time and again that APNs can do this just as effectively as physicians in the areas that we are trained without detriment to patient care or safety. When nurses provide the same care as physicians it is a practice of nursing not medicine. Physicians don't have a monopoly on everything in healthcare that many physicians think they do.
    I really have no interest in debating this point, as it'll result in people getting offended and me getting banned from this forum. So, you'll understand if I don't take the bait!
  11. by   wtbcrna
    Quote from SuperSixEightMD
    There's no need to get confrontational here. Let us try and keep this discussion civil, focused on the topic at hand, and free from personal attacks and attacks on eachothers' competence. Ok?



    Doesn't matter. What they do know about optometrists and podiatrists is that they are doctors of some sort.



    I've never seen a pharmacist refer to himself/herself as "doctor" to a patient. In fact, I have yet to see a pharmacist interact with a patient in a hospital or clinic setting, where there might be confusion on the patient's part as to who the person in the long white coat is. But yes, if in a clinical setting a pharmacist walked up to a patient and said, "Hi, I'm Dr. Wilson", then yes, I'd have a problem with it.



    Patients make assumptions. Patients assume that anyone identifying themselves as "doctor So-and-so" is a physician, dentist, optometrist, or podiatrist, depending on the setting.



    Like I said. All patients make the assumption I described above. But few patients, if any, ever contemplate the possibility that the person in the long white coat introducing himself as "doctor So-and-so" is actually a nurse.



    Yes, we should do this, and most of the time we do. That aside, once we introduce ourselves to our patient as "doctor", pt's know we are a doctor, and not a nurse (with or without a DNP).



    I read that article to which you are referencing, and I hope you realize that it's based on very dubious statistics. I'd urge you to read some of the responses to it, and you'll see where I'm coming from.

    That aside, I'm not sure I understand how this relates to who calls themselves "doctor", but I'll address it anyway. Physicians are not allowed to practice medicine without having, at a bare minimum, one year of residency. And quite frankly, no hospital would ever grant privileges to a physician who hasn't completed a minimum three-year residency program. So when you go to a hospital as a patient and someone walks up to you and introduces himself/herself as "doctor", you know they've been through four years of medical, dental, or podiatry school....plus residency.



    I think you have, in your mind, concluded that medical school is an entirely useless process that provides no material training whatsoever, and that first year residents are unleashed on patients without the least bit of supervision from senior residents and attendings.



    This is a valid point, but "I am Dr. Smith, your nurse" is more so. First off, residents are required to introduce themselves as residents -- without exception. Second, residents are a part of many hospital settings, and patients by and large are aware that they exist and interact with patients. But for a nurse to introduce themselves as doctor is a misrepresentation of their role. Put differently, residents are doctors, and specifying that their residents simply specifies their degree of training as doctors. So, a resident who forgets to say he's a resident has at least gotten the "doctor" part right. DNPs are not doctors, and for that reason they shouldn't be introducing themselves as doctors.



    I really have no interest in debating this point, as it'll result in people getting offended and me getting banned from this forum. So, you'll understand if I don't take the bait!
    1. This topic is ridiculous. This isn't the 1950's where everyone is supposed to bow down before physicians or jump out of their chairs just so a physician can have any seat they want.
    2. There isn't a patient safety issue with other professionals who have earned a Doctorate calling themselves Doctor. This is just an ego issue with some physicians.
    3. My writing is often blunt and to the point. It is not meant to be anything other than that, if someone doesn't like my posts don't read them.
    4. Yes, I have seen Pharmacists interact with patients head up Coumadin clinics and other similar clinics. I have also known other healthcare professionals refer to themselves as Doctor X your pharmacist etc.
    5. You don't have a problem with patients thinking that optometrists and podatrists are physicians, but a nurse that is an expert in their field is problematic because why? This isn't about patient confusion, because we both agree that patients don't know who is a physician and who isn't. There are numerous studies that show that APNs are just as safe and effective as physicians in the fields that we are trained in, so this isn't a patient safety issue either.
    6. I didn't know I was referring to an article when I was posting, but I tend to read articles from all over the place so maybe it just stuck in my mind. In general what I post like many others is from personal experience.
    7. You are absolutely incorrect that physicians don't practice medicine without completing a residency. I have worked with civilian physicians that had only completed one year internships working as staff in acute care clinics. It is also extremely common in the military for physicians to practice as general medical officers (essentially family practice docs) without ever have completed a residency, and since all DOD facilities Joint Commission accredited it is obviously allowed. Luckily for all of us it isn't a common thing.
    8. I have worked with numerous residents and interns. I have yet to see one of them introduce themselves as anything other than Dr. X... The only time I have seen a resident or an intern openly identify themselves as either one is when they were questioned about it by patients or other staff members.
    9. The simple fact is mortality rates are much higher during the summer in teaching hospitals. Like it or not, make out what you want, but it is a simple fact. I have trained medical students during clinical rotations, and I have watched how residents and interns are trained so yes I believe I have a fair understanding how things are done. This is from my own experience so maybe the few hospitals that I have been at that trained residents is different than all other hospitals around the country, but in talking with other health professionals and physicians it hardly seems like it. Interns and residents are mentored and overall medical training is excellent, but interns and residents are often left alone.
    10. Physicians have their Doctorate, and as such have earned the right to use that title. That also goes for anyone else that has earned a doctorate no matter if that doctorate was in history, nursing, pharmacology etc.
    11. doc-tor (dktr)
    n.
    1. A person, especially a physician, dentist, or veterinarian, trained in the healing arts and licensed to practice.
    2. A person who has earned the highest academic degree awarded by a university in a specified discipline.

    12. By the sole definition of Doctor a DNP is a Doctor and has the right to call themselves such if they so choose.
  12. by   SuperSixEightMD
    Quote from BCRNA
    I think the real problem about calling nurses "doctor" comes from jealosy from physicians, plus fear of loss of control of power and money. They feel they have sacrificed more and deserve the title. Whereas nurses with the title have not given up much, their opinion not mine. Physicians have sacrificed a large portion of their life to become physicians, the years of school and 80 hour work weeks. They have lost out on many social oppurtunities and have had to delay many things in life. They don't understand what other professionals have gone through to get where they are, and just assume that it is inferior to their experience.
    I won't lie. It does bother me that people are trying to earn the title of "doctor" despite sidestepping the educational hell of medical, dental, podiatry, or optometry school.

    I do not, however, think that a nurses education is "inferior" to mine. It is different from mine. A nurse is trained to do a different job than I do and I know full well that I and every other physician colleague of mine would be up a creek without nurses doing what they do.

    DNPs are a different animal. Their training is still not as extensive as a physician's, yet they want to have the same role as we do and the same privileges we do...such as introducing ourselves to patients as "doctor". I don't respect people with that endeavor. If they want to talk the talk, they've gotta walk the walk. Do what I did. Bite the bullet, grit their teeth, and go to medical school and complete a residency.

    It also takes away some of their perceived power. Now every person at the health care "table" has a doctorate.

    They are no longer "captain of the ship" in every aspect of healtcare. When at a board meeting discussing policies, every other person there will most likely have a "Dr" in front of their name. If physicians would be completely honest, many would say what they really fear is NP's or CRNA's taking their job oppurtunities. Most will only say they oppose it for "patient safety" in public though.
    Not really. Because I highly doubt that DNPs will ever be given attending status in hospitals. And that is what it all boils down to. Attending status. They can start their own practices and be the king of their own castles, but this won't translate into parity with physicians in hospitals.

    I would never introduce myself as Dr. SoAndSo, but others have earned the right to do so if they wish. As long as they give their job role afterwards. If physicians were so worried about patients not being able to understand, why do so many physicians speak to patients in terms that the patient can understand? Though this is a completely different thread that can go on forever. Medical schools don't teach their students how to communicate with people.
    How do you know that medical schools don't teach communication skills? Have you been to medical school?

    The stereotype of the jargon-spewing, insensitive physician is unfounded nowadays. I finished medical school nearly 15 years ago and I can tell you that being trained to interact with patients in an easily-understood, sensitive, empathetic manner was an integral part of our training both in the pre-clinical and clinical years. So really, physicians like the stereotypes you mention....if they even exist....are at very least a dying breed. But quite frankly, every physician I've met as a patient, a medical student, a resident, and an attending, has had good communication skills. It's essential to get into medical school and succeed in medical school and residency.


    I am amazed how many physicians will constantly use medical jargon and several 5 syllable words to explain something to patients, and then have the nerve to chart they explained the subject in terms the patient could understand in their notes. My main point is patient understanding is not really such a big deal for them--except on this topic.
    Well, I can tell you that any physician who values his/her license and doesn't wish to have his/her malpractice premiums raised -- which is pretty-much all of us -- will take as much time as feasible to keep our patients in the know. We have a vested interest in doing so.

    A doctorate in itself isn't going to add anything to anesthesia, but most anesthesia programs have almost the same semester hours as doctoral programs already. And it takes longer to get a CRNA than it does a PharmD, I say this because the minimum amount of time for PharmD is six years versus almost 8 for CRNA's. Though many PharmD's have 8 also, no previous degree before a PharmD is required yet.
    I'm not so sure about your math there. A PharmD is a four-year program that, with few exceptions, requires an undergraduate degree. That's eight, minimum. Nursing school is two years (or four years, if combined with an undergraduate degree), followed by another three years to get a DNP.

    And entry level nursing is not a doctorate level professon, advanced practice nursing is.
    I have to tell you, I really dislike seeing the profession of nursing being referred to as "entry level". I think it is extremely disrespectful to the RNs who do what is, in my opinion, some of the most important work in hospitals. They have a unique job. They fill a specific role....just as a neurosurgeon does, just as an orthopedic surgeon does, just as a cardiologist does. That makes their role not just important, but vital.

    DNPs, mind you, don't play any specific role. They're trying to cut into a role that is already occupied by another professional.


    Many NP and CRNA programs have almost the same amount of requirements as a doctoral program.
    Please feel free to post your findings comparing the requirements of NP and CRNA programs compared to board certified internists and anesthesiologists!

    Most are two to three times longer than ANY other master's degree. IMO A master's degree in any advanced nursing practice is a much bigger accomplishement than any other master's degree--in terms of requirements and time committment. My anesthesia program actually has more semester hours than the PharmD, DPT, and optometrist program at the school. And all of them introduce themselves as doctor.
    Have you ever tried on a pair of jeans or shoes that were supposed to be your size, only to find that they don't fit even remotely well?

    Calculating credit hours kinda works the same way. Not all schools assign credit hours the same way.

    I think advanced practice nurses have operated at the clinical doctorate level for years, it is about time it is recognized as such. I will admit that the switch is more for political reasons than improving clinical skills.
    All the more reason for prohibiting them from introducing themselves as doctor.

    Nurses have always had to defend themselves as an academically worthy profession.
    I couldn't disagree more. I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't respect the profession of nursing. And rightfully so. The profession has absolutely nothing to prove or to defend. Not to anyone. As I said before, patients and physicians alike know well that health care cannot exist without the nursing profession.

    It's only when nurses try to branch out into practicing medicine that they find themselves having to defend themselves.
  13. by   stanman1968
    Look how hard can it be? Chiros, and podiatrists introduce themselves as doctors, BECAUSE THEY ARE DOCTOR IS NOT A JOB IT IS AN EDUCATIONAL DEGREE! Physicians do not own the name period. If I enroll and finisnh a DNP program then I will be a doctor, if I choose to use it as my title it will be my choice and if you super six decide not to recognize it rest assured I wouild not feel obliged to recognize yours.
    For the last time you do not own the title, period.

    Now go preach to chiros or pharmacists or audiologists or any of the others that have taken "your" title.

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