2015 DNP - page 10
I am wondering if anyone has heard any updates. Everything I keep seeing online from the AACN is "recommendation", "strongly encouraged", "highly suggested". I have yet to see anything, that... Read More
Aug 5, '11Hi Dr. Tammy:
This is off-topic, but I am wondering did you have clinical for your DNP program at Duke? I am currently looking for online MSN-DNP programs and am noticing quite a bit of differences within the curriculums...............for example, some schools seem to offer classes for the DNP which I already completed during my master's degree and many are requiring a total of 1000 clinical hours (between MSN +DNP clinical time)...........
Also not sure if you would know, but I graduated with a MSN for ADULT psych NP and if I were to take go for a DNP specific to FAMILY psych, would I then be able to sit for the ANCC Family Psych certification??
Thanks in advance,
Aug 5, '11The mistaken identity was addressed above, so no hard feelings there.
I *have* been critical of issues in nursing education, at both the undergrad and grad levels, on this and other boards.
Probably the only point I want to make clear is that I interact regularly with Masters, PhD, and DNP degree holders. We are professional and academic colleagues. I cannot think of any point or concern I've raised on the internet that I haven't discussed with them in person. This includes in the context of them being in positions of academic authority (i.e. professors for my classes, or for whom I am a graduate assistant).
I've discussed these same issues with them, such as view of nursing PhDs towards DNP holders (and vise-versa), practice expansion issues, etc.
Aug 6, '11There was an article in the NYTimes back in June about a NY nurse's DNP project that is being adopted by the Governor as a state wide initiative now. It is going to be implemented by the Visiting Nurses Assoc. I am not certain, but I think she or he was a psych NP and the project was related to assessing and intervening for depression in the elderly. PhDs can scoff at the DNPs all they like, but it is no small thing to have your "Capstone Project" (I'm told we are changing the name) and decreed by the Governor to be state health policy!
Aug 6, '11Of all the DNP programs I've looked into, the one I like the most is Columbia University. The really do emphasize the clinical aspect in their program. They require the completion of clinical portfolio instead of thesis or other more academic approach. I hope that DNP programs for nurse practitioners eventually evolve to make this a requirement. It probably does not make sense for a non nurse practitioner DNP student to meet this requirement however.
EVERY DNP program (for ARNPs) does serve to improve the nurses clinical skills above what they learned in their masters by virtue requiring more clinical hours be completed. Some programs, of course, will provide a better experience. (true of any school, including medicine). Are these additional clinical hours enough to warrant the title "doctor"? That is certainly a matter for debate.
There is no question that MDs spend more time studying before being "let loose", but I it is unrealistic to expect nursing to evolve the DNP program to exactly mimic osteopathic or allopathic models. As nurses, we begin our clinical training during our undergraduate The whole concept of an advance practice nurse is based on that fact; the idea being to expand on this knowledge. This is a historical truth. Future DNP programs will likely continue this tradition.
Given that nursing and medicine will not have identical educational paths, at what point should DNPs be considered worthy of the title "doctor"? Should they need more clinical hours? Do they need to prove their competency after boards some how? Are DNPs not considered experts in their field now?
Aug 10, '11Quote from dqbanrn*** Except they don't. At least not all of them. The CRNA program based here at my hospital and where my best friend in a student went from MSN to DNP without adding a single clinical hour or experience. Students to the DNP portion first, part time. It is all classroom and paper writing and research. Then the enter the exact same CRNA program as the previous MSN students did with exact same classes and clinicals as the previous MSN students. The CRNA programs are already loaded down with a lot of fluff and this program just added to it.EVERY DNP program (for ARNPs) does serve to improve the nurses clinical skills above what they learned in their masters by virtue requiring more clinical hours be completed.
Aug 10, '11Actually, they do. If you read my statement, I specifically say "ARNP" and not CRNA. The reason for this is that the DNP requires a minimum of 1000 clinical hours. CRNA programs typically already meet this requirement (above and beyond), but ARNP programs are usually between 500 and 1000.
I agree that fluff courses don't do much to help nursing practice and think DNP programs would be better served with classes that refine our clinical skills.
DNP programs could trim fat by getting rid of some of the research oriented stuff. Instead of some capstone project, a Doctor of nursing PRACTICE should do something that proves their practice skill. Thats why I like the idea of a clinical portfolio. For an ACNP it could include things like central line or chest tube placement.Last edit by dqbanrn on Aug 10, '11 : Reason: spell correct and add a thought
Aug 10, '11Quote from dqbanrnResearch increases the chances my patients improve...just saying.DNP programs could trim fat by getting rid of some of the research oriented stuff. Instead of some capstone project, a Doctor of nursing PRACTICE should do something that proves their practice skill. Thats why I like the idea of a clinical portfolio. For an ACNP it could include things like central line or chest tube placement.
Aug 11, '11Quote from dqbanrnI'd say similar clinical hours and similar education in path, pharm and physiologyGiven that nursing and medicine will not have identical educational paths, at what point should DNPs be considered worthy of the title "doctor"? Should they need more clinical hours? Do they need to prove their competency after boards some how? Are DNPs not considered experts in their field now?
Quote from zenmanSure but having 12 hours of useless research fluff and only 4 hours of pathophysiology isn't doing your patient any favors.Research increases the chances my patients improve...just saying.
Aug 12, '11You do not need to be a DNP to learn new skills. You can pick up skills on the job as an NP. I don't think there's anything that's within the scope of practice for a DNP that's not for an NP. Maybe some hospitals will start requiring DNP if you're going to head a department, or if you want to teach, but clinically I don't see the advantage of a DNP.
Aug 12, '11Quote from Jeanette73Same argument historically used when the transitioned to the BS, when the certified NP transitioned to the BS, big uproar, when we went to the MS in 1992, same song different dance, now the DNP. The most vocal always seems to be those who already have the degree and can't see why additional education will make a difference. Keep seeing the same theme, research "fluff".You do not need to be a DNP to learn new skills. You can pick up skills on the job as an NP. I don't think there's anything that's within the scope of practice for a DNP that's not for an NP. Maybe some hospitals will start requiring DNP if you're going to head a department, or if you want to teach, but clinically I don't see the advantage of a DNP.
Don't you ever wonder how those evidence based guidelines are created? As far as an academic challenge I find the research "fluff" far more difficult as compared to pathophysiology or pharmacology. I see fluff indicating "easy" , not too intellectually challenging. My experience has told me the best way to weed out the weaker students in a nursing program is with a research course, the weaker the student is in research the weaker the student is overall. I have not done the "fluff" study to prove my Hypothesis , only anecdotal experience working with undergraduate and graduate nursing students for 25 + years. Show me a "C" in nursing research and I will show you the weakest student in the group, both academically and clinically.
Aug 13, '11Quote from dqbanrn*** Yep, the "ARNP" part went right over my head. I withdraw my point. Thanks for setting me strait. I see your point now.Actually, they do. If you read my statement, I specifically say "ARNP" and not CRNA.
Aug 13, '11Many use the term fluff because soft sciences add nothing clinically, especially compared to hard science like pathophysiology or pharmacology. When most of a DNP is about learning to read research rather than actually being able to take care of patients, there is a problem- especially when the DNP curriculum is designed to provide care for patients. The DNP isn't a PhD in nursing; it is a clinical doctorate.
As to the research classes showing the weaker students- so does any course. You could use an English literature to show you who are the weaker students but taking English lit (just like taking health policy courses) it's not going to make you a better clinician.
The problem is that most DNP programs just don't have enough clinically relevant courses. Instead they add research/health policy courses which may be interesting but don't prepare you for bedside practice. Let's look at Duke's DNP program. Taking out the research capstone, 33 credits are clinically irrelevant and 33 are clinically useful. That's a problem in my opinion.
Clinically "less useful" courses ( 33 credits)
Research methods, research utilization and applied statistics- 8 credits
Evidence based practice and applied statistics- 7
Data driven healthcare improvement- 3
Health system planning-3
Health system transformation- 3
Epidemiology- 3 credits
Effective leadership- 3
Transforming the nation's health 3
Financial management and budget planning- 3
Clinically useful: 33 credits
Health promotion- 3
Diagnostic reasoning- 4
Managing common acute and chronic problems - 6
Child health care-4
Sexual/reproductive health 4
Elective 12 credits
Aug 16, '11In this whole debate, I wonder if anyone has run into this problem: I was discussing whether or not to pursue a DNP or MSN for advanced practice and a physcian chimed in that, while MD's in this area are beginning to see the advantage of APRN's over PA's (due to their previous nursing experience), he and some others would not consider a protocol agreement or employment of an APRN with a DNP. This doc (and others he claims) are opposed to what they think the DNP represents. He also mentioned that MD's are just as opposed to PA's having a doctorate as an entry to practice and stated that he has observed no notable benefit of PT's having a practice doctorate. Pharm is the only field that seems to have improved with it he says. What do you all think? Is this an isolated MD opinion?