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opinion on clinical practice



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Aug 08, 2004 08:57 PM

opinion on clinical practice


i have an issue i would like a little feedback on...here's how the discussion went.
me: put pt to sleep, give a few breaths to asses ventilation. (standard induction not rsi)
md: why are you breathing the pt, go ahead and paralyze.
me: i want to see if i can ventilate first, then give the ndmr.(vec in this case)
md: it doesnt matter anyway, you have to get the airway.
me: if i cant ventilate this guy is paralyzed at least an hour.
md: so, you have to get the airway.
me:yeah but if i cant vent. at least he will be in the process of waking up while i try to get the airway, otherwise he wont do any be breathing.
md: how long does propofol last? he's still gonna get braindamage.
me: yeah but he wont be dead.
md: but how long does propofol last, he still wont breathe, he will have brain damage.
me: well it's dose dependant and at least when they put my chart on the wall in the courtroom i can say i was doing my best to vent, wake up the patient and get an airway. the other way pt is dead, i'm dead in court
md: you still have to get the airway
me: i am not paralyzing anyone that i dont know i can ventilate unless i have to. esp with longer acting agents.
so this went on for about 20 minutes, not heated but noone was gonna give any ground.
is there anyone who regularly paralyzes without regard to ventilation with non depolarizers.
or is it more the standard of care to assess ventilation first?
thoughts....comments....
d


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21 Comments
No. 1
from yoga crna
Old Aug 08, 2004, 09:13 PM

I have always ventilated before paralysis. There are several reasons that you nicely stated, but the one that I have seen most often, is that for some reason the breathing circuit is not intact, the bag fell off the machine, or the oxygen is not on. Strange things happen to anesthesia equipment, so that extra margin of safety is there. To do otherwise, is simply LAZINESS. MDs can get away with laziness and substandard practice, we can't.

Yoga CRNA
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No. 2
from sonessrna
Old Aug 09, 2004, 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by gaspassah
i have an issue i would like a little feedback on...here's how the discussion went.
me: put pt to sleep, give a few breaths to asses ventilation. (standard induction not rsi)
md: why are you breathing the pt, go ahead and paralyze.
me: i want to see if i can ventilate first, then give the ndmr.(vec in this case)
md: it doesnt matter anyway, you have to get the airway.
me: if i cant ventilate this guy is paralyzed at least an hour.
md: so, you have to get the airway.
me:yeah but if i cant vent. at least he will be in the process of waking up while i try to get the airway, otherwise he wont do any be breathing.
md: how long does propofol last? he's still gonna get braindamage.
me: yeah but he wont be dead.
md: but how long does propofol last, he still wont breathe, he will have brain damage.
me: well it's dose dependant and at least when they put my chart on the wall in the courtroom i can say i was doing my best to vent, wake up the patient and get an airway. the other way pt is dead, i'm dead in court
md: you still have to get the airway
me: i am not paralyzing anyone that i dont know i can ventilate unless i have to. esp with longer acting agents.
so this went on for about 20 minutes, not heated but noone was gonna give any ground.
is there anyone who regularly paralyzes without regard to ventilation with non depolarizers.
or is it more the standard of care to assess ventilation first?
thoughts....comments....
d
Interesting...all the docs I have ever worked with have insisted I have an airway prior to nondepolarizing muscle paralysis. RSI is the only time I have no established that airway. I think you handled that well.
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No. 3
from Gotosleepy
Old Aug 09, 2004, 06:32 PM

okay.... so now you can't ventilate, patient is desaturating.... are you going to try to intubate? if so, what drugs will you give and why?
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No. 4
from gaspassah
Old Aug 10, 2004, 07:31 AM

goto,,,i would call for help then...
reposition, oral airway if one was not used.
i would do larygoscopy without paralysis, if i saw the cords i would attempt intubation, if the cords were adducted i would give some succs and intubate.
if i could only see partial cords or the arytnoids i would try a bougee or the bougee you can jet vent through. to place a tube.
if i couldnt see anything i would try a fastrack lma. and attempt ventilation. if successful, let the pt wake up or tube through it if i felt comfortable at that time.
if lma was unsuccessful then combitube attempt.
if neither of these worked then cricothyrotomy or surgical airway should be concidered.
if handy you could try lightwand or fiberoptic. but some choices are not realistic during a crisis. ie setting up the fiberoptic etc.
i just feel as i go throught the diff airway algorythm and the pt is not paralyzed then as time goes on they have a better opportunity to take on spont resp. vs. paralyzed an definetly not going to breathe.
these are the priciples i was taught.
if you have alternatives please share. i am willing to learn. i appreciate your feedback.
d
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No. 5
from athomas91
Old Aug 11, 2004, 02:38 PM

i am with you on this one - and, by the way, that was very impressive how you stood your ground.

i likewise have only worked w/ Anesthesiologists who ensure ventilation prior to paralytics.
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No. 6
from Gotosleepy
Old Aug 11, 2004, 05:37 PM

so if you can ventilate .... does that mean that you can always intubate?

and if you aren't 100% positive that you can intubate, why not do all of your inubations awake?....

food for thought
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No. 7
from gaspassah
Old Aug 11, 2004, 10:22 PM

i would think the chances of securing an airway are higher in patients that can be ventilated. i could be wrong of course.
no i dont think that just because you can ventilate that guarantees an intubation. but it does almost guarantee that the patient is not going to die because i cant intubate as long as i can ventilate.
and if you aren't 100% positive that you can intubate, why not do all of your inubations awake?....
i think it unwarranted to think that every airway can be intubated. i also think it's unwarrented to treat each one like it can't. to me the key is setting yourself up for success and not failure ( of which your patient may leave in a body bag.)
my point is ventilation GOOD . apnea/inability to ventilate BAD . therefore before rendering someone absolutely positively apnic see if you can save their life by ventilating them beforehand.
i am beginning to get the inkling you feel every patient should be paralyzed from the get go then go after the airway.

would you mind substantiating your argument with some supporting philosophy? or feel free to disect mine more.
i'm not looking to butt heads, nor am i looking to make this a md vs crna / srna thing either . but trying to learn more about the philosophy of airway management and providing the most safe and sound practice i can for my patients.
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No. 8
Old Aug 12, 2004, 12:44 AM

It amazes me that some think this is even debatable.

So, if I can't ventilate....

I do NOT give a non-depolarizer...

The very reason I do try to ventilate before paralysis is BECAUSE I know that I won't always be able to ventilate.
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No. 9
from London88
Old Aug 12, 2004, 08:45 AM
Updated Aug 12, 2004 at 01:21 PM by London88

Brenna's Dad,

I was trying to stay out of this discussion because I cannot see how someone would defend giving the paralytic w/out attempting at least one breath. Without attacking Gotosleepy, I do not know that his/her arguments are always objective, and I always detect an element of antagonism even when Gotosleepy knows his/ her argument is not making sense such as the prior discussion on titrating paralytics in a non intubated pt.
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