What Does a BSN have to do with CRNA?

[JustAWannaBe]

I have just finished my BSN and I was thinking of someday working on an going back to an CRNA.

To tell you the truth I don't feel like I learn much of anything. I learn a couple some Med-Surg clinical skills and some disease knowledge, but not much more. I have been reading about CRNAs for years and I cannot even understand why I had to get a BSN to get CRNA.

They seem like apples and oranges, which would make me happy because I didn't enjoy my nursing courses they seemed more like BS then BSN courses.

[Bruce RN]

Heh, after 2 years of pre-reqs I ask myself this stuff every day, LOL. I'm trying to figure out what to retain and what to dismiss. A good example of non-relevant knowledge would be my upcoming class, FIA 102 (Fine Arts: Paleolithic to 14th century). I guess it'll just help to keep my GPA up where it needs to be.

Yeah, but what about my friend who majored in theater and got accepted to med school?

Yeah, he took the required courses (o-chem, etc) but he majored in...THEATER!

I can't speak to your comments about your friend in medical school because I'm not familiar with the requirements, but even if that is the case........

Does that make it ok to lighten requirements for CRNA school because some med school did the same?

Are we, as nurses, here simply holding our breath waiting for a medical school to define who and what we are, define our requirements, and bowing down just because they did the same and that we should shadow them simply because they are a medical school?

We've all worked with way too many bad doctors to allow medicine to define what we are and what our requirements should be.

[Ekklesia]

Does that make it ok to lighten requirements for CRNA school because some med school did the same?

Negatory, my friend. Nor am I suggesting anything of the like. I'm just stating the facts. Call it playing devil's advocate if you like

In my previous post I was making light of the fact that my BSN program requires a Fine Arts course, and how irrelevant that is to nursing (IMHO). I just looked over the entire curriculum and see only one or two other classes that I would consider "irrelevant". As far as I can decipher there are about 36 classes all in all in order to obtain a BSN, and most are highly relevant.

I will throw myself into learning as much as humanly possible concerning Paleolithic art. I look forward to the challenge!

[wvccrn]

I am an ADN to BSN now in an anesthesia program. I do not like your tone young man.(Mike) You have insulted my education, my nursing school and a whole lot of very good nurses. I worked for 11 years in a level 1 Trauma MSICU, five with JUST my ADN. I obtained my BSN later and my CCRN. I worked with several ADNs and I would put them and myself up against any other ICU nurse anywhere. You may have had more clinical time in school but we all know it is once you get into the units that you learn how to become a real nurse. So Mike I consider myself more than a plumber. So get off your high horse and back down to earth where the "real nurses" live.

[BeatOU]

I would like to be paid more for my bsn...especially since my BSN was ten times the cost of an adn...

also, i still think nursing diagnosis are depressing.

[MmacFN]

Hey there wvccrn

Let me say that clearly your a great RN. You would not have went back and done your BSN and now in CRNA school if you were not an A-Type personality. People who are A-Type (probably everyone who goes to CRNA school) would do well regardless of their initial education. What im saying is that a BSN degree will prepare one for what academia is all about, research, evidence based practice and professional expectation. This is the focus of university and not the traditional focus of the ADN or diploma.

I never said in any of my posts that an ADN was a plummer. What i said was that RN education should be a minimum of a BSN. I have met many excellent ADN nurses. Yes, you learn alot on the job. Do you want nursing to be considered something you "learn on the job?" i sure as hell do not. A profession is defined by exactly two things:

1) A specific body of knowledge to said profession

2) Education, specifically a university degree.

University education sets the bar. Its dangerous to make the assumption that because someone has "years in" that equates to anything. I still see RNs with 15+ years tell me morphine causes hypotension so you cant give it to chest pain patients with low BP. Something I learned about in my pharm classes in univ. (Hypotension from MS is histamine mediated. Give benedyl before hand and poof, mitigated hypotension.) Essentially, time in dosent = knowledge. That is soley defined by the individuals drive to learn often regardless of education.

Where i see the differences in BSN vs ADN (from my program anyway) are these: My pharm classes were taught by pharmacists, anatomy class (full human cadavar lab) was taught by an anatomist, biochem class by a biochemist.. i could go on. In anycase, the quality (and complexity) of education is quite different in the university setting (as im sure your finding out in CRNA school) than it is in an ADN taught by RNs who are often burned out clinically. Ive preceptored students in the CV and ER who were taught incorrect information and even had one of their instructors tell me it wasent in nurses scope of practice to intubate etc. Out of the loop, clearly incorrect and ignornace at its finest.

Do i believe that an ADN can be an excellent RN? Sure i do, ive seen it. Are there crappy BSN students out there? Sure. However, a proper program with more clincial and a deeper level of education will ultimately, prepare the student to a higher standard and be positive for nursing as a whole both politically and professionally.

I also feel that the university evironment encourages academia where the ADN one does not. Research is rarely talked about in the ADN yet in the degree it was a focus in my program. The future of a profession and the only way to validate one is through research. When was the last time you saw a journal article written by anyone with less than a BSN? It rarely happens.

Do not personalize the comments I made. Instead, look at what youve done with your career because of your degree. See how different the CRNA education really is because its a university program in a unviersity environment. My father always told me education "opens doors and oppertunity" and it couldnt hold more truth.

I am an ADN to BSN now in an anesthesia program. I do not like your tone young man.(Mike) You have insulted my education, my nursing school and a whole lot of very good nurses. I worked for 11 years in a level 1 Trauma MSICU, five with JUST my ADN. I obtained my BSN later and my CCRN. I worked with several ADNs and I would put them and myself up against any other ICU nurse anywhere. You may have had more clinical time in school but we all know it is once you get into the units that you learn how to become a real nurse. So Mike I consider myself more than a plumber. So get off your high horse and back down to earth where the "real nurses" live.

[BeatOU]

A profession is defined by exactly two things:

1) A specific body of knowledge to said profession

2) Education, specifically a university degree.

Mike I am going to disagree, or perhaps just add a third tenet that I believe our profession is currently lacking.

3) It is clearly defined.

This is where I think a ton of problems occur. For instance, look at what websters online dictionary defines nurse as:

Main Entry: 1nurse

Pronunciation: 'n&rs

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French nurice, from Late Latin nutricia, from Latin, feminine of nutricius nourishing -- more at NUTRITIOUS

1 a : a woman who suckles an infant not her own : WET NURSE b : a woman who takes care of a young child : DRY NURSE

2 : one that looks after, fosters, or advises

3 : a person who is skilled or trained in caring for the sick or infirm especially under the supervision of a physician

Now this is why it is pertinent to the current ADN-- BSN discussion. We cannot clearly express and disagree about what type and amount of education is enough to become a "nurse." because we cannot adequately define what a "nurse" is. Let's look at "all the nurses" in no particular order:

1) LVN

2) Diploma

3) ADN

4) BSN

5) MSN

6) PhD in Nursing

Now, from the Licensed Vocational Nurse to the Dr. Nurse, each of these is called a nurse. What are the consequences? For a moment, lets skip the "advanced practice nurse" consideration.

1) Except for the LVN, each of these "nurses" is going to be paid the same, or certainly in the same ballpark, as each other if they are staff members in an ICU. The inability to turn more training and more education into more pay is due to the fact that we can't define our profession adequately.

2) By not being able to accurately define what a nurse is, other health care professions will slowly carve niches out of what has traditionally been "nurse" work. For example RT's, the dreaded Anesthesia Assistant, etc.

3) Also, I think the term "nurse" robs men of their gender identity and keeps many out of the profession. I think about a third of attorneys are women, a third doctors, and about 5 percent are men.

what do yall think?

[MmacFN]

beat

nicely said and very very true.

a long time ago (as apart of my bscn hehehe) i wrote a journal article about islands of masculinity in nursing. i hate the term "nurse" and prefer rn for that very reason. every rn related book, every prof. everyone sees nurse = women (or maybe gay man). only in the last few years have i been extrememly impressed with the johnson & johnson commercials which actually show men in them. kinda cool.

where i have noticed men (in my research it was over 70%) are in these areas:

- er

- icu (including pacu)

- flight nursing

- ground transport nursing

- cath labs

er/icu had about 50% of all men employeed in the profession.

we actually have a "support" website (which im not sure i need one) which is:

the american assembly for

[color=#003399] men in nursing

http://aamn.org/

have a good one, if you want the article i think i have it here somewhere.

mike i am going to disagree, or perhaps just add a third tenet that i believe our profession is currently lacking.

3) it is clearly defined.

this is where i think a ton of problems occur. for instance, look at what websters online dictionary defines nurse as:

main entry: 1nurse

pronunciation: 'n&rs

function: noun

etymology: middle english, from old french nurice, from late latin nutricia, from latin, feminine of nutricius nourishing -- more at nutritious

1 a : a woman who suckles an infant not her own : wet nurse b : a woman who takes care of a young child : dry nurse

2 : one that looks after, fosters, or advises

3 : a person who is skilled or trained in caring for the sick or infirm especially under the supervision of a physician

now this is why it is pertinent to the current adn-- bsn discussion. we cannot clearly express and disagree about what type and amount of education is enough to become a "nurse." because we cannot adequately define what a "nurse" is. let's look at "all the nurses" in no particular order:

1) lvn

2) diploma

3) adn

4) bsn

5) msn

6) phd in nursing

now, from the licensed vocational nurse to the dr. nurse, each of these is called a nurse. what are the consequences? for a moment, lets skip the "advanced practice nurse" consideration.

1) except for the lvn, each of these "nurses" is going to be paid the same, or certainly in the same ballpark, as each other if they are staff members in an icu. the inability to turn more training and more education into more pay is due to the fact that we can't define our profession adequately.

2) by not being able to accurately define what a nurse is, other health care professions will slowly carve niches out of what has traditionally been "nurse" work. for example rt's, the dreaded anesthesia assistant, etc.

3) also, i think the term "nurse" robs men of their gender identity and keeps many out of the profession. i think about a third of attorneys are women, a third doctors, and about 5 percent are men.

what do yall think?