Paramedic on Medical Surgical Units outside of just the ER

Nurses General Nursing

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In Michigan paramedics seem to have a very expansive scope of practice while working in the ER (at least in this one hospital system). They are able to push medications such as morphine, start critical drips such as cardizem, intubate patients, set up vents., do EKGS, administer breathing tx's, insert foleys, start IV's ect. It seems as if they are functioning more as a Nurse/RT then a medic. Granted they do these interventions in the field, but not usually in the ED. Do you think Is this because they are performing these duties via delegation from an RN or due to an expanded protocol basis from the Medical Director?

My main question however is relative to using paramedics outside of the ER realm and integrating them into the pt. care team on medical surgical units in the hospital in a supportive role to the RN team.

Meaning that they would function in essence similarly to a Nurse Tech with an expanded scope of practice allowing their skills to be used as a paramedic. Thus in turn allowing the RN work load to be lightened a bit, and letting the medic cover for Rx's, insulin, foley insertion, drsg. changes ect. Additionally they could prove to be a valuable asset on respiratory units with ventilator dependent patients - as medics are trained in vent initiation, use and maintenance as well as pt. trach care.

Another situation that seems to really stick out is when a pt. codes on a unit: staff on the unit becomes short because most are assisting in the code. However, a medic would be able to alleviate this by working on the floors code team (ACLS cert.) and provide intervention in which they are trained based upon Dr. orders. Additionally medics are trained in detailed EKG interpretation on the defib./mont.

What is your opinion on a hospital piloting the use of paramedics in this role in an acute care setting out of the traditional ER setting you find them in and on a med./surge. Unit? Of course they would not be there to step on anyones toes so to speak, but to help lighten the work load of the RN team.

Paramedic Consolidates:

  • Nurse Tech
  • Nurse Assistant
  • ER Tech
  • EKG / Code Team Member
  • Lab Draws
  • Limited Respiratory duties upon delegation
  • Limited RN/LPN duties upon delegation

What do you think?

Specializes in MICU, SICU, CICU.
It also brings up the debate of who's responsible for whom and for what. You mention the responsibility of delegation to yet another provider. It may not have to be that way, if the paramedic was functioning under the direction of a physician then they wouldn't necessarily have to answer to the RN.

The other side of the arguement is RNs working on an ambulance. How does anyone feel about that? Some states refer to them as PHRN (prehospital RN). While working for a helicopter service, I have ridden in ambulances with patient's when the weather is down and some medics have had a huge problem with the fact that my RN partner was only certified as an EMT-basic and tried to contest them from providing care in the back of an ambulance. I know that's not only incredibly trivial, but also makes things out to be about something other than the patient's well-being.

Maybe I should clarify. I was referring to an earlier post where the idea of paramedics working on transport teams for procedures so that the nurse doesn't have to leave the unit. In that instance I would have to report to another provider and turn over care of that patient, I would rather accompany the patient myself and continue their care (I'm just anal about these kind of things). I understand that paramedics often function under their own medical director, but if they are on the floor or in the unit functioning as a nurse tech, wouldn't they fall under the RN as far as delegation goes.

Now as to RN on ambulances. I tend to think that if you want to ride on the ambulance go through the EMT and paramedic program. Nursing school in no way prepares you to effectively practice on the scene. Yes my skills and a paramedics skills do overlap in certain areas, but I have no idea about scene management, packing the patient for transport, driving the ambulance, or even simple tasks like the proper way to communicate on the radio. If the state says I can't challenge the paramedic exam, there is a reason, I could not function effectively in the prehospital environment without completing even the basic EMT program.

I'm a paramedic, and I am against it. For one, you are enabling an administrator to exploit you. Two, you are treading in to turf where more often than not, you are not wanted. Nurses should be against it too. Don't you want to protect the value of your degree?

Specializes in ER/ICU/Flight.

From Nurseboy1

"I understand that paramedics often function under their own medical director, but if they are on the floor or in the unit functioning as a nurse tech, wouldn't they fall under the RN as far as delegation goes."

Yeah, you're right. If they were hired as nurse techs, then they sure would fall under the RN. Which might be a hard sell to some medics.

On a side note, I live in WNC, where are you? I read your post about challenging the medic exam. They used to let you take an EMT refresher course, then ride several shifts (maybe 100 hrs.) and you could challenge the state exam. I have mixed feelings about that but it's better than some of the old MICN regs.

Specializes in MICU, SICU, CICU.
From Nurseboy1

"I understand that paramedics often function under their own medical director, but if they are on the floor or in the unit functioning as a nurse tech, wouldn't they fall under the RN as far as delegation goes."

Yeah, you're right. If they were hired as nurse techs, then they sure would fall under the RN. Which might be a hard sell to some medics.

On a side note, I live in WNC, where are you? I read your post about challenging the medic exam. They used to let you take an EMT refresher course, then ride several shifts (maybe 100 hrs.) and you could challenge the state exam. I have mixed feelings about that but it's better than some of the old MICN regs.

I live in Durham. I thought about challenging the exam when I was interested in flight nursing, but the more I researched the more I realized what a bad idea it would be (challenging the exam). At any rate I am much happier in the ICU environment.

I truly am not against a paramedic trying to make a living, but I am tired of the bean-counters trying to constantly come up with a new solution to re-inventing the nurse. If you want nursing functions performed, pay well and provide a decent working environment, and your staffing problems might just disappear.

Specializes in ICU. Med/Surg: Ortho, Neuro, & Cardiac.

^Bump.

Thanks Jess1983 i brought the issue being discussed on this forum about paramedics on units in my hospital to the nursing admin. and they love the idea and are considering piloting a program of having one medic on every unit functioning as a CNA with extra medic intervention ability - and the code team is a big one - waiting on the house officer to arive and an RT sometimes just takes to long when a medic could have allready intubated, and shocked the patient out of vfib. The pay scale has also been looked at and the medic/cna would be paid the same as a nurse tech at my hosp. which is more than any medic makes in the streets. Its around $18 an hour. Ill keep everyone posted.

I'm not sure that I follow. I went to school to be a CNA, to learn nursing tasks, to learn about Alzheimer's and Dementia, to learn about how to assist in the care of a dying patient, and to assist the nurses. I took a written exam over these things, and a skills exam over various tasks. While I know that my scope is very limited and my classes were not very long at all, I did enroll in the program because I want to be a CNA, not a paramedic/EMT.

So now they are going to take someone who went to school to be a paramedic and have them work in the capacity of a CNA with "extra medic intervention ability"? No offense to anyone at all, but in addition to the whole education aspect of it all, I can't see ANY of the nurses on my floor at night who would want anyone else managing their drips or what have you. I know that if I was a nurse, I probably wouldn't be comfortable with this simply because the reason I want to go to nursing school is so that I can be responsible for the nursing care of my own patients and manage their care.

Yes, before anyone decides to say it, I do know that anyone is capable of making an occupied bed, taking vital signs, placing a pt on a bedpan, or giving a bed bath. But if a medic can work as a CNA, then I don't even see why a CNA must be certified.

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