The Circumcision Discussion

[jmspeach]

I know this can be a HUGE debate, and I'm not looking to start any arguments. I was just wondering as you are OB nurses. I'm expecting a boy in July and not sure if we should circ. or not. My husband says yes, it's better medically in the long run. My gpa who just turned 70 had to have a circ. due to endless complications lately.

As nurses in this area, is the medication that they use good? And what are some questions to ask my Dr. about it. I already know that my hospital i'll be at uses a med. when they perform it, I"m just wondering what you all think.

Thanks

Jen :)

[Aislstarfish]

This is a post from another group I belong to. I was pretty sure that I was against circumcision, but after reading this and watching the video.. I know that if a doctor ever even came near my son with something like this, i'd knock him out. It made me sick to my stomach. I don't understand why something like this is such a common practice

I am a former labor and delivery nurse for a major hospital. When I first started there, I assisted in infant male circumcisions. I hated it from the first but it was a part of my job, and I had children to feed.

The first circumcision I assisted in is burned in my memory forever. The screams of that poor child will never leave me. The doctor assured me that the baby felt no pain, that he wouldn't remember it, and that he was only mad because he was restrained. In order to make it easier on myself, I chose to beleive that.

We were trained to never tell the parents the truth. We were always to tell them that the child slept through it, or he barely noticed, or he only cried for a minute. We would keep babies after the circumcision until they calmed down, so their parents wouldn't know how bad it was. A lot of babies did just pass out. The pain must have been completely unbearable. Very few OB's use any kind of anesthesia, believing that it's more trouble than it's worth. Only one doctor that I worked with ever used any anesthesia, and it was a lidocaine injection. Lidocaine injections hurt tremendously anyway, and the children would shriek in pain and terror as they were given the shot. I often wondered if it hurt more than the surgery would have. After that, the babies would still shake and scream through the entire surgery. Then I'd quiet them down and take them back to their parents and tell them that he slept through the whole thing and barely noticed it. Even if we didn't use anesthesia we were always supposed to tell the parents that we used adequate pain relief, which almost always amounted to a pacifier. That is what most OB's consider adequate pain relief and most likely what every child received, even if your OB told you different.

Link to the full quote

[CEG]

:yeahthat:

There is no scream like a baby getting circumcized. Not even from unmedicated laboring women. Interesting that most women wouldn't even dream of going through labor without an epidural but send their son off to be circd saying they "feel bad" about it and then putting it out of their mind. I lie to the moms too and say "He did great!" when in reality I want to puke. No point in making them feel bad when it's already done. I do everything in my power to avoid assisting at circs.

[secretspectrum]

Yes, it sure seems like it would make sense for the parents to at least be there to comfort the baby during painful procedures. I think the amount of siblings that would be done would decrease.

[BlueRidgeHomeRN]

has it occurred to anyone that the countries that circumcise their children more often also have more money, education and access to prophylactics.. and that that could be the reason hiv is less prevalent????

i mean, come on... a foreskin is not going to increase the probability of getting hiv. that is absolutely ridiculous! it's a piece of skin, that's supposed to be there. hiv is transmitted through bodily fluids, not foreskins, hahah.

#1--these studies compared men in the same poor countries, so your wealth=better education and health is all washed up and lacking data.

#2--obviously the fluids and perhaps microtears in the foreskin accumulate fluids and hold them for ready transmission.

feel free to discuss the merits of circumsion in developed countries, but don't dismiss data because you feel that this procedure is unnecessary, painful, barbaric, or whatever. anything that reduces hiv needs to be considered.

[secretspectrum]

Male Circumcision Ineffective in HIV Battle According to New Future HIV Therapy Report

Promoting male circumcision in Africa is risky and dangerous and could lead to more HIV infections, warns a new paper published today in the May issue of Future HIV Therapy. Promoting circumcision will drain millions, possibly billions, of dollars away from more effective prevention strategies, and cause tens of thousands of infections and other surgical complications.

West Lafayette, IN (PRWEB) May 6, 2008 -- Promoting male circumcision in Africa is risky and dangerous and could lead to more HIV infections, warns a new paper published in the May issue of Future HIV Therapy.

Lead author Dr. Lawrence Green says, "Having served on both the US Preventive Services Task Force and the Community Preventive Services Task Force, which do systematic reviews of research to arrive at government-supported evidence-based guidelines for practice, I believe the African studies on the basis of which some are promoting circumcision as HIV prevention would be classified at best as 'insufficient evidence’ by both panels."

"Promoting circumcision will drain millions, possibly billions, of dollars away from more effective prevention strategies," cautions co-author John Travis, MD, "and cause tens of thousands of infections and other surgical complications, further straining an already overwhelmed healthcare system and undermining the current ABC (abstinence, be faithful, and use condoms) campaigns by creating a false sense of immunity and increasing risk-taking behaviors. African males are already lining up to be circumcised, believing that they will no longer need to wear condoms, and this is a serious concern."

Full article: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2008/05/prweb916104.htm

[Aislstarfish]

#1--these studies compared men in the same poor countries, so your wealth=better education and health is all washed up and lacking data.

#2--obviously the fluids and perhaps microtears in the foreskin accumulate fluids and hold them for ready transmission.

feel free to discuss the merits of circumsion in developed countries, but don't dismiss data because you feel that this procedure is unnecessary, painful, barbaric, or whatever. anything that reduces hiv needs to be considered.

blueridge, you are very right.. i apologize for being so dismissive in my post. i do feel circumcision is unnecessary, painful and a bit barbaric, but.. that does not discredit any data that may have been found in regards to hiv. however, i have to say that it still seems a bit silly to me that having a foreskin alone could increase the rate of hiv. i do understand your point about the foreskin trapping fluid though. impo, i believe that increased hiv transmission has to do with behavior, not circumcision. however, i will not dismiss the data just because of how i feel about the situation and that there may be other factors involved. thank you for pointing that out to me :)

[Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP]

Personal feelings about circ aside, my fear is that any study relating it to a drop in HIV incidence will equate to an increase in risky behaviors. "I can do whatever I want, I'm circumcised."

Also, I am concerned that we are talking about reducing risk of HIV in countries whose gov'ts cannot even ensure that people have clean drinking water. And we are going to encourage (and trust) them to perform surgery using sterile technique on a massive scale? I just do not see it being all it's been made out.

Not to mention that the study had some serious design flaws to begin with.

[suanna]

I would imagine the incidence of HIV would drop dramatically if all little boys would have thier entire memberes surgicaly removed. We would have to work out some other solution for procreation but if getting rid of HIV is your only goal- snip away. Personally, I resent the fact that my parents were pressured into agreeing to having an unnecessary surgical amputation performed on me to meet some obscure societal norm.(I'm Baptist- no Mohel involved). I don't remember having a foreskin but I want it back! I'm glad the need for this barbaric practice starting to be reconsidered. Cutting off the parts of the body that tend to harbor infection is a poor alternative to hygiene education.

[Aislstarfish]

I would imagine the incidence of HIV would drop dramatically if all little boys would have thier entire memberes surgicaly removed. We would have to work out some other solution for procreation but if getting rid of HIV is your only goal- snip away. Personally, I resent the fact that my parents were pressured into agreeing to having an unnecessary surgical amputation performed on me to meet some obscure societal norm.(I'm Baptist- no Mohel involved). I don't remember having a foreskin but I want it back! I'm glad the need for this barbaric practice starting to be reconsidered. Cutting off the parts of the body that tend to harbor infection is a poor alternative to hygiene education.

:yeahthat: YES! I agree!

[BlueRidgeHomeRN]

however, i will not dismiss the data just because of how i feel about the situation and that there may be other factors involved. thank you for pointing that out to me :)

and i realize my opinion on this matter is just that, an opinion! i might be way off base, and know that being circ'd got my sons a lot of stares at the (naked) baby pools in europe.

i freely admit that my hygiene issues are colored by both the biblical (am catholic, not jewish, but hear it all the same) and the personal "ick" factor from the previously mentioned old boyfriend (who had poor hygiene overall).

i defer the decision to parents who make an informed choice....but again state my support for the plasti-bell over all other procedures if the choice is made to circ.

[Spidey's mom, ADN, BSN, RN]

I would imagine the incidence of HIV would drop dramatically if all little boys would have thier entire memberes surgicaly removed. We would have to work out some other solution for procreation but if getting rid of HIV is your only goal- snip away. Personally, I resent the fact that my parents were pressured into agreeing to having an unnecessary surgical amputation performed on me to meet some obscure societal norm.(I'm Baptist- no Mohel involved). I don't remember having a foreskin but I want it back! I'm glad the need for this barbaric practice starting to be reconsidered. Cutting off the parts of the body that tend to harbor infection is a poor alternative to hygiene education.

In either this circ thread or one of the many ones here I mentioned that I asked my two adult sons what they thought of circumcision and would they rather I had been able to persuade their dad into NOT doing it and both were appalled!! They both said they would be very unhappy with me if they were not circ'd.

I think it has to do with where you grow up - there was only one boy not circ'd here and he got teased.

If it was the reverse, they would probably change their mind. Or not.

But my adult sons are glad they were circ'd. The don't want their foreskins back.

I'll have to wait on the 6 year old - he has no idea yet.

steph

[Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP]

My European friends are, across the board, appalled that this is even thought about, much less practiced here.

Anecdotally, from a Finnish friend: "We believe the prepuce is there for a reason and we leave the damn thing alone." (her words)

From a German friend: (wrinkles her nose) "Why do you all do that?"

(They ask me about my job, and I tell them. I don't go around bringing it up to everyone I know.)