Retaliation for voicing concern over unsafe pratices

Keysnurse2008 · Dec 28, 2005

Like I said ... there's good and bad unions. I also firmly believe that unions run by RN's best represent RN's. Unions that aren't run by RN's tend to be less effective, IMHO.

How does this CNA union that you participate in protect you from retaliatory termination.How is that addressed....what safeguards are in place?Can you tell me how..if I had of been in your union...they could have protected me?

katfishLPN · Dec 28, 2005

katfishlpn.....didnt they have to "lay you off" by seniority?how did they get around that...what explanation did they provide.??
see.....this is where i get really untrusting with hcf....examples like this.. :deadhorse :deadhorse

about the senority thing. there were 3 nurse's hired in the same week. i was one of them. one of the other nurse's hired the same week as me had been out for months on personal sick time. she did come back eventually but they considered me to have less senority than her. at least that was their story.

but first what happened is the administrator gave my nurse manager a piece of paper to give to me to sign. the nm handed it to me and told me to sign it (not telling me what it was or why) naturally i read it and it said they were downgrading my status from full time to part time. i said to the nm "whhhaaaattttt???" and all she said was "oh don't worry you'll still get full time hours." well that would take away my medical, dental, vision & rx. insurance! i was the sole source of income for my family and sole source of insurance for myself, my 2 little boys and my husband who has a broken back and has needed 2 surgeries so far and still needs one more, needless to say this really was not acceptable. so that is when i went into to talk to the administrator when she went on about the financial trouble of the co. and said i was the highest paid lpn they had. then she said i could either be laid off or go on call. so i just choose to be laid off so i could at least collect unemployment. but the thing was really they didn't need to lay me off they just didn't want to pay me and made up an excuse since i made such a fuss about them taking my status and benefits away from me. i am getting pretty jaded and cynical about the nursing field. i love being a nurse but i hate the politics and the bottom line of even the "non-profit" businesses!

Keysnurse2008 · Dec 28, 2005

About the senority thing. There were 3 nurse's hired in the same week. I was one of them. One of the other nurse's hired the same week as me had been out for months on personal sick time. She did come back eventually but they considered me to have less senority than her. At least that was their story.
But first what happened is the administrator gave my nurse manager a piece of paper to give to me to sign. The NM handed it to me and told me to sign it (not telling me what it was or why) naturally I read it and it said they were downgrading my status from full time to part time. I said to the NM "Whhhaaaattttt???" and all she said was "Oh don't worry you'll still get full time hours." Well that would take away my medical, dental, vision & Rx. insurance! I was the sole source of income for my family and sole source of insurance for myself, my 2 little boys and my husband who has a broken back and has needed 2 surgeries so far and still needs one more, needless to say this really was not acceptable. So that is when I went into to talk to the administrator when she went on about the financial trouble of the co. and said I was the highest paid LPN they had. Then she said I could either be laid off or go on call. So I just choose to be laid off so I could at least collect unemployment. But the thing was really they didn't need to lay me off they just didn't want to pay me and made up an excuse since I made such a fuss about them taking my status and benefits away from me. I am getting pretty jaded and cynical about the nursing field. I love being a nurse but I hate the politics and the bottom line of even the "non-profit" businesses!

This is why I get more cynical by the day...

TsunamiKim · Dec 28, 2005

tnnurse: is there hope? check this out:

[color=#990000]more texas hospitals earn nurse friendly designation

http://www.nursezone.com/job/medicalnewsalerts.asp?articleid=14627&page=on+the+job&profile=nursing+news&headline=more+texas+hospitals+earn+nurse+friendly+designation%09

quote from article: "to be considered nurse-friendly, the hospitals must support rn autonomy and control over their practice environment, exceed government safety standards, ensure systems exist to address patient care concerns, offer orientation, employ a chief nursing officer with a master's degree, offer opportunities for professional development and competitive wages, recognize nurse merit and excellence, support a balanced lifestyle, refuse to tolerate physician abuse of nurses, hold middle managers accountable and develop their skills, and demonstrate a commitment to evidence-based practice."

worth looking into,

fair winds & following seas, kim

Sheri257 · Dec 28, 2005

How does this CNA union that you participate in protect you from retaliatory termination. How is that addressed....what safeguards are in place? Can you tell me how..if I had of been in your union...they could have protected me?

I am not a member of CNA nor do I work for them. I'm a nursing student who hopes to work for a CNA facility once I graduate from nursing school. In my previous career I belonged to other unions which weren't as effective, which is why I have followed CNA's activities closely. Some of my instructors initiated the CNA organization efforts in my area, and I helped them with the election as a volunteer.

To answer your question: here's an example of a CNA contract with the University of California. It states that disciplinary action and discharge cannot be done without written notification and "just cause."

http://atyourservice.ucop.edu/employees/policies/systemwide_contracts/nurse/art_26.pdf

"Just Cause" means they can't just arbitrarily fire you. They have to have a good reason for it: like you're not doing the job properly. And they have to document and prove that you're not doing the job, if that's their claim. If they intend to fire you, they have to notify you and provide documentation as to why you should be fired. You're also entitled to present your own documentation with your own representative (usually a lawyer or union rep) to argue your case with management.

If they can't prove you did something wrong, then they can't fire you under the contract. If they fire you anyway, without any proof of wrongdoing, you probably have a much stronger case if you go to in court.

This link from another non-nursing union has a good explanation of what "just cause" means.

http://www.upte.org/discipline.html

"An extremely important right guaranteed by a union contract is that an employee can only be disciplined or terminated for "just cause." Just cause means the employer cannot exercise the power to discipline and fire for capricious, arbitrary or discriminatory reasons."

So ... while these provisions may very well protect the RN that you had a problem with, it also probably would have provided you some protection in your situation.

:smokin:

Keysnurse2008 · Dec 28, 2005

i am not a member of cna nor do i work for them. i'm a nursing student who hopes to work for a cna facility once i graduate from nursing school. in my previous career i belonged to other unions which weren't as effective, which is why i have followed cna's activities closely. some of my instructors initiated the cna organization efforts in my area, and i helped them with the election as a volunteer.
to answer your question: here's an example of a cna contract with the university of california. it states that disciplinary action and discharge cannot be done without written notification and "just cause."
http://atyourservice.ucop.edu/employees/policies/systemwide_contracts/nurse/art_26.pdf
"just cause" means they can't just arbitrarily fire you. they have to have a good reason for it: like you're not doing the job properly. and they have to document and prove that you're not doing the job, if that's their claim. if they intend to fire you, they have to notify you and provide documentation as to why you should be fired. you're also entitled to present your own documentation with your own representative (usually a lawyer or union rep) to argue your case with management.
if they can't prove you did something wrong, then they can't fire you under the contract. if they fire you anyway, without any proof of wrongdoing, you probably have a much stronger case if you go to in court.
this link from another non-nursing union has a good explanation of what "just cause" means.
http://www.upte.org/discipline.html
"an extremely important right guaranteed by a union contract is that an employee can only be disciplined or terminated for "just cause." just cause means the employer cannot exercise the power to discipline and fire for capricious, arbitrary or discriminatory reasons."
so ... while these provisions may very well protect the rn that you had a problem with, it also probably would have provided you some protection in your situation.

hmm....i mean it is something to think about.but...i have heard alot of negative issues about nsg unions too.how much :"say" do these nurses actually get on what that union does and does not agree to. i mean.....can they make alterations without agreeement from all the nurses? id worry that a "good" union now...would become a bad union later that truly didnt protect or advocate for the nurses.

Sheri257 · Dec 28, 2005

hmm....i mean it is something to think about.but...i have heard alot of negative issues about nsg unions too.how much :"say" do these nurses actually get on what that union does and does not agree to. i mean.....can they make alterations without agreeement from all the nurses? id worry that a "good" union now...would become a bad union later that truly didnt protect or advocate for the nurses.

that's a legitimate concern, but the membership does have a voice in what the union does. the union doesn't have to get agreement from all nurses in the unit, but they do have to get agreement from a majority of the membership. afterall, not everybody is going to agree on everything ... so a lot of this is governed by majority vote.

for example, the membership has to vote on any contracts that are negotiated with management. if the majority of rn's rejects what the union negotiated with the contract, then the union has to go back to the bargaining table. but if the majority approves the contract, that's it. you still have to abide by the majority approved contract, even if you're in the minority and disagree with it.

and, if the majority of rn's is really unhappy and wants the union out all together, they can also have a decertification election. basically they gather signatures from 30 percent of the membership to hold the election. if a majority votes the union out, they're gone. or, if they're able to get a majority of the membership to sign the petition, you can throw the union out that way without holding with an election.

cna, for example, does have their detractors. there have been two decertification elections recently in california. but the union prevailed in both of the elections, although one of the votes was close.

so the membership does have a say in what the union does but, if you are in the minority, and the majority of your colleagues still supports the union then, there's not much you can do about it. that's the downside of belonging to a union.

:nurse:

TsunamiKim · Dec 31, 2005

so ... while these provisions may very well protect the rn that you had a problem with, it also probably would have provided you some protection in your situation.

:smokin:

this is the problem the union represents the good, the bad and the ugly! my union rep was as easily fooled by the managerial lies as outside agencies and they did a piss poor job of representing my interests. they took months to secure access to basic evidence. they did not appear to have monitored or bothered to ask when things were inserted into my file. i was forced to go through them to accomplish my goals, but they didn't even read my account properly or examine my evidence. they barely even bothered to challenge the director of surgical nursing when she lied under oath at my arbitration. they gave me incorrect information regarding whether my arbitration was binding. last but not least they put my guilt in writing three times in direct contradiction of everything i had told them.

i would like to have had the option to not join the union where i worked, but it was a condition of employment. we were told that if the or saved money there were bonuses, but our union was the reason they gave for not living up to this offer. the union negotiated a 50% pay off of accrued vacation time if you left or were fired from your job. management does not need these extra incentives to fire people! i wish i had been able to negotiate my reinstatement without the union involved, but i couldn't. i had to use their incompetent lawyer who totally sold me out because he did not respect my principals. i would never want to belong to a union again, but i had a very bad experience.

while we do need to act together as a group i do not necessarily feel union is the answer. this is also a piecemeal approach as we are fighting battles one at a time. we need changes in legislation to secure important protections; if unions support these changes fine so much the better. i think we should target senators who have bought other important healthcare, workforce rights or whistle blower protection legislation forward in the past and enlist their help. i also think we should contact advocacy groups and insist that there are some important battles to be fought regarding these issues. sarbanes/oxley, sox, could be expanded to better represent those in the health care industry. we need nation wide changes not one painful battle at a time. who is up for this strategy?

fair winds & following seas, kim.

Keysnurse2008 · Dec 31, 2005

tsunami kim,

see...i think you are correct.it seems that is a pattern with nurses and physicians that report patient care and safety issues.they conviently "postphone" investigations till months later. when investigations are begun...it begins with the nurse/physicians having to justify their own pratice.it seems only when hc facilities are faced with evidence that could actually publically embarass that facility does they even attempt to investigate complaints.ex: like me having irrefutable evidence of the nm lying on audiotape and her making contradictory statement after contradictory statement.so....my advice to anyone.....record it if you cant take photos of the "evidence" ...bc otherwise they may try tactics like with tsunami kim....questioning your "mental fitness" for making such an allegation against a hcf such as them. sad day in nursing and medicine...isnt it folks? when you have to have frame by frame photos of the theif putting their hand in the cookie jar to even be believed.

panhandler · Dec 31, 2005

This little "thread" is part of a whole cloth. It is a cloth of greed and abuse. The only way to fight fire is with fire: our last refuge of sanity is the law of the land. We need legislators to be on our side. The question is, can we bribe them enough or guilt-trip them enough with advertising and lobbying to stop our oppressors, our employers, who allow the everyday business of doing nurses to death.WHO HAS THE CUJONES TO TACKLE IT? WHERE'S THE MONEY TO DO IT?

Three months ago I got thrown out of a job for advocating for a patient's life. Aside from the expensive defense of my license, being denied unemployment, and shunned by the people who used to force me to eat quiche, I want to let you know that I just tried to sign up with a temporary agency. There's a "release" in the application that states in effect I give up the right to legal action against anyone, past present or future who may slander, libel or harass me.

I ain't gonna sign that.

Do you think it's a Stupid Test: ie. if I am stupid enough to sign it, they can feel free to whump me like a rented mule?

huh?

So I am going to revive the little business I had going 5 years ago, doing journals, vanity publishing, studying for my BSN-MSN, tending my garden, and volunteering in counselling senior citizens. What am I saying??? I AM a senior citizen!! I have great tickets current in all the stuff you need to work (right now!), 30 years of experience, I have talent, organization skills, and I can type 120 words a minute. I can nurse circles around anyone out there. I will NOT work for a pittance. I will NOT work where I am not certain that my car will still be there when it's time to go home.

I am withdrawing from the backstabbing narrow-minded pill-pushers in pantyhose..... I just don't fit in. For instance, I'd rather read a book than go to a covered dish supper. If forced to attend, I'd like to bring wine instead of a "covered dish" to THEIR party. Soggy quiche, heavy potato chips and wilted carrots make me puke; besides, I have done the Acute GI Bowling Dance with bad Mayo, and will not eat it unless I have accurate provenance. So this effectively isolates me from "society." Yes, I am wierd. I am too old. I am too pretty. I have too much experience to kiss butt to be allowed to wipe S--t on the night shift.

State Nurses Society, my big white patoootie. There's no help for burnout THERE. THey just want money so they can do what they always do: print platitudes, waste time, and bow down to Big Health Care Medical-Industrial Dollars.

O forgive me, but I do not think that NURSES have the CUJONES to WALK OUT OF THEIR JOB not even for one hour. If we all did that, I bet your little tin cup that we would have the attention of the Big Boys.

Who has the cujones..... do you?

Sheri257 · Jan 1, 2006

While we do need to act together as a group I do not necessarily feel Union is the answer.

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with your union. I too have had bad experiences with unions but, that doesn't mean that all unions are bad. If a union doesn't adequately represent you then, by all means, dump them. But, when a union does effectively represent RN's, it's a great thing, and there are other unions that do this.

:nurse:

Sheri257 · Jan 1, 2006

O forgive me, but I do not think that NURSES have the CUJONES to WALK OUT OF THEIR JOB not even for one hour. If we all did that, I bet your little tin cup that we would have the attention of the Big Boys.
Who has the cujones..... do you?

In California the nurses' unions seem to strike all the time. There's been strikes in San Diego, Frezno, San Francisco, etc. in the last year.

:nurse: