Let's stop counting on charity to pay medical bills

Nurses Activism

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  • by jsrRN
    Specializes in Oncology.

You are reading page 2 of Let's stop counting on charity to pay medical bills

RN4MERCY

328 Posts

Specializes in ICU/CCU/TRAUMA/ECMO/BURN/PACU/.

Thanks, Jolie.

That brings up another topic, "clean money" and public financing of political campaigns. Very often, good people without access to big money (or without tons of money on their own), can't afford huge campaign costs. That's another reform issue that I work on. It will help to restore democracy by giving ordinary voters an equal voice. In terms of trusting politicians, like I've said, vigilance is the key.

An engaged citizenry must organize and mobilize to protest injustice and irresponsible behavior. For example, Governor Sarah Palin of Alaska was for the "bridge to nowhere" before she was against it. Whereas, Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano was the first governor elected with only public, "clean money" funds. So far, she has a very good record of public interest leadership.

So, we pay our legislators to do a good job for us and we have to hold them accountable. We have to remind them, sometimes regularly, who they work for. It's not enough to elect them and then just trust them. Trust has to be earned. And, many a politician is willing to jump out in front of a good idea when the grassroots mobilizes and demonstrates support for it. Like safe staffing ratios in California. That was a twelve year fight organized by our nurses union. We have an especially dedicated legislator, Sheila Kuehl, who was the author of our bill, but each of us had to educate and provide testimony as to why the law needed to be passed and implemented.

Senator Obama is on record as saying that he would sign single payer legislation if Congress puts it on his desk. He has said that if he were starting from scratch, single payer would be the way to go. Many of us see hope in those responses and believe that this is going to be the year of health care reform. A single payer reform bill, like HR 676 needs to be passed and implemented because the current system is hazardous to our health. "How many deaths will it take, until they know, that too many people have died?" The answer is not blowing in the wind. It exists.

The answer is a universal health care system, based on the single payer model. It will be genuinely therapeutic and correct the problem. Among the nineteen top industrialized countries, we rank last in deaths from preventable illnesses. And we're the only country without some form of single payer health care. Placebos are unethical so we will be vigilant.

You mentioned the Freudian definition of insanity. And you're right; it would be foolish to keep allowing insurers a seat at the table as a "stakeholder" (and expect a different outcome--controlling costs, expanding coverage), when they're part of the problem; a well documented failure. No genuine reform can include them. Bake sales are not enough. Single payer is the only solution. :twocents:

The answer is a universal health care system, based on the single payer model. It will be genuinely therapeutic and correct the problem. Among the nineteen top industrialized countries, we rank last in deaths from preventable illnesses. And we're the only country without some form of single payer health care. Placebos are unethical so we will be vigilant.

This, right here, is the central issue at hand. Unless opponents of UHC think that Americans are uniquely incapable of doing what the rest of the world already has done, then there is no reason for us to delay any further.

RN4MERCY

328 Posts

Specializes in ICU/CCU/TRAUMA/ECMO/BURN/PACU/.

Yes I am also opposed to corruption, since you mention about our new president to be, we only have to look at his state and where he represented to see how corrupt government can be.

Patrick,

So you agree corruption is shameful. But please, you should be more careful and stop to think about what you're saying. Your imply that the whole "government" of the state of Illinois is corrupt, but you simply don't support your contention.

I could "hazard" a guess as to what you meant to say. People that I know and care about who live in Illinois would probably be offended by your statement. Barack Obama and his wife Michelle and their children are people of integrity. Senator Obama was a professor of constitutional law before he entered the senate. He's been vetted and elected to serve as our next president. I'm sure there are many decent and hardworking legislators in the state.

My guess is that you meant to refer to the behavior of one individual, Governor Blagojevich, who's been tried and convicted in the media, for allegedly trying to "sell" the senate seat vacated by President-elect Obama?

First, I would agree that Governor Blagojevich has been careless with his words, according to what I've read in the papers. Although he's been indicted on serious charges, as far as I know he has not had the opportunity to face his accusor(s) in a court of law, nor has he been convicted of any wrong doing by a judge or jury of his peers. The man is innocent until proven guilty and he's entitled to due process.

As for Blagojevich's appointment of Roland Burris, so far there has been no charge of impropriety in the process through which Burris received the appointment. Roland Burris is the former attorney general of the state of Illinois and I don't see any evidence that he is anything but a good and decent man.

Our 16th President, Abraham Lincoln, was a lawyer and a legislator from the state of Illinois. So, I think we can look at the state he represented and see how good people can rise above humble circumstances and do incredibly wonderful things as an advocate for democracy and justice.

And I voted for Barack Obama because I believe and hope that he will do good for the nation. I hope he will come around to fully endorsing a single-payer system of health care and free us from the tyranny of for-profit insurance companies. They've taken our precious health care dollars and denied us the freedom to choose our own doctors and health care practitioners; they've denied us our choice of hospitals and clinics; they've denied us the opportunity to receive the medications and treatment recommended by our providers.

Abraham Lincoln once said, "The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves in their separate, and individual capacities."

We need to exercise our responsibility to take care of ourselves, but in a democracy, we are interdependent and have a responsibility to support government policies that will provide for the common welfare. Most individuals with significant health care needs could not afford to fund personal accounts that would be adequate for their needs. We should accept the concept that we need to take care of those with needs by paying for their care out of a pool that we all fund on an equitable basis.

Specializes in Family Nurse Practitioner.
Patrick,

So you agree corruption is shameful. But please, you should be more careful and stop to think about what you're saying. Your imply that the whole "government" of the state of Illinois is corrupt, but you simply don't support your contention.

I could "hazard" a guess as to what you meant to say. People that I know and care about who live in Illinois would probably be offended by your statement. Barack Obama and his wife Michelle and their children are people of integrity. Senator Obama was a professor of constitutional law before he entered the senate. He's been vetted and elected to serve as our next president. I'm sure there are many decent and hardworking legislators in the state.

My guess is that you meant to refer to the behavior of one individual, Governor Blagojevich, who's been tried and convicted in the media, for allegedly trying to "sell" the senate seat vacated by President-elect Obama?

First, I would agree that Governor Blagojevich has been careless with his words, according to what I've read in the papers. Although he's been indicted on serious charges, as far as I know he has not had the opportunity to face his accusor(s) in a court of law, nor has he been convicted of any wrong doing by a judge or jury of his peers. The man is innocent until proven guilty and he's entitled to due process.

As for Blagojevich's appointment of Roland Burris, so far there has been no charge of impropriety in the process through which Burris received the appointment. Roland Burris is the former attorney general of the state of Illinois and I don't see any evidence that he is anything but a good and decent man.

Our 16th President, Abraham Lincoln, was a lawyer and a legislator from the state of Illinois. So, I think we can look at the state he represented and see how good people can rise above humble circumstances and do incredibly wonderful things as an advocate for democracy and justice.

And I voted for Barack Obama because I believe and hope that he will do good for the nation. I hope he will come around to fully endorsing a single-payer system of health care and free us from the tyranny of for-profit insurance companies. They've taken our precious health care dollars and denied us the freedom to choose our own doctors and health care practitioners; they've denied us our choice of hospitals and clinics; they've denied us the opportunity to receive the medications and treatment recommended by our providers.

Abraham Lincoln once said, "The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves in their separate, and individual capacities."

We need to exercise our responsibility to take care of ourselves, but in a democracy, we are interdependent and have a responsibility to support government policies that will provide for the common welfare. Most individuals with significant health care needs could not afford to fund personal accounts that would be adequate for their needs. We should accept the concept that we need to take care of those with needs by paying for their care out of a pool that we all fund on an equitable basis.

Go ahead and hazard a guess as to what I am going to say. Believe me, I believe in free speech, I will say what I want to say. But please go ahead and put the words in my mouth for me. I am not here to debate politics about Obama. I know about the politics of the state of Illinois, no need to sugarcoat it for me.

I want what is best for our nation as well. If i offend people, so, who really cares. That quote you took from Lincoln to mean many different things. I could easily apply it to justify what my political beliefs are.

I tell you what though, since you are in favor of stoping charity to help pay medical bills, then lets close down all the catholic hospitals, the methodists hospitals and other hospitals that do alot of health care for charity.

I can not speak for you of course, but some people equate to paying taxes as the same as charity. Charity comes from the heart, if you dont pay your taxes, you will be thrown in jail.

Jolie, BSN

6,375 Posts

Specializes in Maternal - Child Health.

The sum total of these arguments is this: "I can't believe that a nurse would be so lacking in compassion as to oppose government mandated, tax-payer funded health care, despite the miserable failures of recently-implemented government programs such as Medicare Part D.

An equally invalid argument would be this: "I can't believe that a nurse would be so lacking in insight and knowledge of recent history as to support government mandated, tax-payer funded health care, despite the miserable failures of recently-implemented government programs such as Medicare Part D.

Why do you have so little faith in your fellow man as to believe that every need of very individual must be provided by government? I have great confidence in the ability of the individual (family) to meet their own needs when given the education, tools and motivation to do so.

The sum total of these arguments is this: "I can't believe that a nurse would be so lacking in compassion as to oppose government mandated, tax-payer funded health care, despite the miserable failures of recently-implemented government programs such as Medicare Part D.

An equally invalid argument would be this: "I can't believe that a nurse would be so lacking in insight and knowledge of recent history as to support government mandated, tax-payer funded health care, despite the miserable failures of recently-implemented government programs such as Medicare Part D.

Why do you have so little faith in your fellow man as to believe that every need of very individual must be provided by government? I have great confidence in the ability of the individual (family) to meet their own needs when given the education, tools and motivation to do so.

Well, unfortunately you've done it again. You didn't respond to a single one of the cogent points I made in the previous post directed at you. Instead, you're attempting to reframe the argument to better suit your purpose, which does you no favors at all. If your argument is so lacking in coherency that you can't even respond to a small bullet-point list of objects, then do you honestly think that you've thought this out in any sort of critical-thinking fashion?

I said absolutely nothing regarding nurses or compassion. I think these are both key elements, sure. But those are my emotional feelings....not facts. That's the difference between supporters of UHC, and opponents of UHC. You'll find that one side actually has facts and history with which to back up their arguments. The other side argues from the gut, telling us how they 'feel', rather than demonstrating an understanding of real, actual reality.

I don't think that 'every need' of the individual should be provided for by the government. And more importantly, I never said that and neither did anyone else. But I'm stating that health care is, at the very least, on the same level as police and fire service, and as such should absolutely be provided for by the government. You, (and every other opponent of UHC) on the other hand, are seemingly incapable of responding to that point.

I wonder why that is the case.

Jolie, BSN

6,375 Posts

Specializes in Maternal - Child Health.

Quote from RN4Mercy on previous page: "For me, it's a moral imperative, as a responsible individual member of this society to advocate for a single-payer system of universal health care. Simply stated, if you can, you should, because it's the right thing to do. And if you can't, we'll help you."

You're a Christian, huh?...

If you or anyone else refuses to answer those points, then don't even bother replying, because delusional beliefs that have absolutely no basis in fact are already crowding the national conversation on this topic as it is.

First of all, I was not responding directly to you. Your fellow posters on this thread are not bound by "rules of discussion" you attempt to impose. I was making a generalized statement of my interpretation of the opposing views on this topic, based in small part upon the statements I quoted above. Those are Mercy's and your opinions. Opinions I don't agree with. And I don't need or want anyone's help in advocating for something that I believe to be not only unnecessary, but harmful to our country. Just as I would not be so presumptive as to insist on advocating on your behalf for something you don't believe in.

I have, in other threads, discussed at length my belief that health care will become affordable only when control of payment for most health care expenses is removed from the government, employers, insurers and other dis-interested, ineffective and inefficient 3rd parties and returned to the individual. If you have any real interest in reading this viewpoint, please say so, and I will attempt to direct you to those threads. I have neither the time nor the inclination to repeat lengthy discussions here, in a thread that is loaded with emotion and judgment and lacking objectivity and respect for alternatives view points.

Quote from RN4Mercy on previous page: "For me, it's a moral imperative, as a responsible individual member of this society to advocate for a single-payer system of universal health care. Simply stated, if you can, you should, because it's the right thing to do. And if you can't, we'll help you."

Not sure why you're quoting this. It has nothing to do with what I said. Care to elaborate?

I was making a generalized statement of my interpretation of the opposing views on this topic, based in small part upon the statements I quoted above. Those are Mercy's and your opinions. Opinions I don't agree with.

No, they are not just opinions, actually. They are facts to which you are unwilling and, apparently, incapable of responding. Please point out where I stated my unfounded opinion, just as you have been doing this entire time.

And I don't need or want anyone's help in advocating for something that I believe to be not only unnecessary, but harmful to our country.

Again, actual facts and statistics do not flesh out your argument. In fact, they go 100% against it. Do you understand that? Why is America not capable of achieving what literally every other industrialized nation has achieved? Again, you fail to answer this question. I suspect, it's because you don't have an answer that helps your argument in any way.

We both know why that is.

I have, in other threads, discussed at length my belief that health care will become affordable only when control of payment for most health care expenses is removed from the government, employers, insurers and other dis-interested, ineffective and inefficient 3rd parties and returned to the individual.

This is a delusional fantasy world which has been disproven time and again. Don't believe me? I guess you think you're smarter than Alan Greenspan,who recently admitted that there is a flaw in this 'free market' thinking. If you honestly believe that, without regulation, healthcare providers would act in our best interest each and every time, without someone looking over their shoulder to gurantee it, then I have some books you should read. Unfortunately, the libertarian fantasy is a fraud, and everyone but libertarians knows it.

Here, read this

http://www.zompist.com/libertos.html

It's not a 'source' in any regard, but it is a good starting place to understand why libertarianism is a failed fantasy world, which goes against nearly every single facet of human nature.

If you have any real interest in reading this viewpoint, please say so, and I will attempt to direct you to those threads. I have neither the time nor the inclination to repeat lengthy discussions here, in a thread that is loaded with emotion and judgment and lacking objectivity and respect for alternatives view points.

I don't respect your viewpoint because it is factually incorrect, and millions of people are dying because of it.

We have numerous examples around the world about what UHC would do for this country. Yes? We have zero examples of your fantasy world in which removing any and all government intervention for payment or anything similar would result in some sort of low cost healthcare situation.

Why can't you simply answer the points I have brought up? Do you realize that it does a disservice to your argument when you can't answer a small handfull of simple questions?

Do you answer them in the other threads you mentioned? I doubt it, but if so, yes please show me.

RN4MERCY

328 Posts

Specializes in ICU/CCU/TRAUMA/ECMO/BURN/PACU/.
Go ahead and hazard a guess as to what I am going to say. Believe me, I believe in free speech, I will say what I want to say. But please go ahead and put the words in my mouth for me. I am not here to debate politics about Obama. I know about the politics of the state of Illinois, no need to sugarcoat it for me.

I want what is best for our nation as well. If i offend people, so, who really cares. That quote you took from Lincoln to mean many different things. I could easily apply it to justify what my political beliefs are.

I tell you what though, since you are in favor of stoping charity to help pay medical bills, then lets close down all the catholic hospitals, the methodists hospitals and other hospitals that do alot of health care for charity.

I can not speak for you of course, but some people equate to paying taxes as the same as charity. Charity comes from the heart, if you dont pay your taxes, you will be thrown in jail.

Patrick,

I was hoping you would clarify and defend what ever point you were trying to make. Most of the Catholics and Methodists I've shared life's journey with are charitable and kind. But if you'd do just a little bit of homework, you'd realize that some hospital chains have kept the mantle, in name only, of the religious faith that founded them. They're now owned and/or run by huge, bureaucratic, and heartless corporate entities whose "mission" is to increase their "profit" margin. (They do it in a number of ways that are definitely not Christian, if you read and understand the parables of Jesus.)

What's in a name? The cloak of respectability perhaps. Call me a cynic or a discerning citizen, but as a nurse it appears to me that the religious cloak worn by some of these hospital corporations is more like a shroud that hides some very inconvenient truths. To quote the director of the Institute for Health and Socioeconomic Policy (IHSP), "The industry's survival as an industry is linked to its ability to be widely seen as legitimate, fair, and trustworthy by both the general public and the nation's caregivers."

Wonderful nurses and doctors work in these facilities, and they're doing their best, despite overwhelming odds, to provide care to the patients who trust them. There are true patient advocates and whistleblowers among them who are working to expose and remove barriers to their ability to provide the care patients need to restore them to optimal health. Some of these facilities employ utilization review clerks and case managers to delay admissions while waiting for "authorization," push for early discharges and transfers and look for other ways to cut corners and skimp on care to protect the corporate bottom line. That's not very charitable in my book. Say what? In the name of the father, son, and holy ghost, I'm discharging or dumping you, with your complex care needs into the streets, or unto the ranks of your unlicensed, unskilled family or friends with a set of instructions and a prescription that would challenge a newly graduated RN. Never mind whether you have the ability to pay for your prescriptions, that's not our problem. Amen!

If you know anyone who works in accounts receivable in a hospital, ask them how many millions of dollars they're owed in reimbursements from insurance companies, and how many of those millions are they writing off, because of insurance company denials and recissions. Speaking of administrative waste and overhead, Professor Uwe Reinhardt, who is also on the board of trustees of the 900-bed Duke University Hospital, used Duke to illustrate the problem: "We have 900 billing clerks at Duke. I'm not sure we have a nurse per (each) bed, but we have a billing clerk per bed...it's obscene." But, not to worry Patrick. We're talking big business in an industry that is often lacking in transparency and charity. The last study I read, published by IHSP, that was based on calculations of American Hospital Association data, showed record setting aggregate profits of over $309 BILLION dollars.

You've no doubt read about hospitals that hide their corporate sins under the umbrella of their "in name only" major religious affiliation. Such hospitals inflate the cost of the care they provide and then write it off on their taxes. It's a form of cheating the taxpayers, any way you slice it. And, hospitals are supposed to return "in kind" services, which should include the so-called "charity care" you mentioned, in exchange for their preferential tax status, (property/income), in the community. However there is little oversight and few audits of their accounting. Hosting a ladies tea to discuss menopause qualifies as a community service write off. Inflating the cost of providing surgery and medication to indigent patients is written off. The difference between the inflated charges and reimbursement is written off as a loss. Again, this is a form of "charity care" which is actually a subsidy paid by taxpayers to these giant hospital chains.

A majority of physicians, all of the nursing associations that I'm aware of, and an even higher proportion of Americans support single-payer, national health insurance or, (Medicare for All). You have the right to disagree with us, and to continue to fire blanks at the messengers. I have yet to read your counter proposal, which I hope will include a factual response to Nobel prize winning economist Paul Krugman's analysis and support of single-payer health care.

Back to the point made in the commentary posted by jsrRN that started this thread. "Let's stop counting on charity to pay medical bills." We can't and shouldn't rely on "charity" to meet our collective needs for health care. Rose Ann DeMoro's essay on the subject is eloquent.

The question for us as a society is this: Do we want a health care system that makes a few people rich, or one that makes people well? :saint:

allnurses Guide

herring_RN, ASN, BSN

3,651 Posts

Specializes in Critical care, tele, Medical-Surgical.

I love my country.

I truly believe that government of the people, by the people, and for the people can work.

We the people CAN do the right thing.

No, we can't count on "the government" because it is US!

And I don't believe whether a person lives or dies should depend on a pancake breakfast or bake sale while the insurance corporation they have been paying premuims to denies needed care. And pays the CEO millions people paid for HEALTH CARE.

There is no plan to stop charities. The plan is to eliminate the lack of healthcare because charities cannot do it all. Not while the insurance companies make the money and provide ZERO care.

From the original article:

...In an era when our government has already intervened on behalf of Citigroup and AIG and Freddy and Fannie and all those other financial wizards on Wall Street, maybe we can bailout the tens of millions of Americans without having to count on livestock auctions or widows' funds to pay for medical care.

https://allnurses.com/social-health-care/lets-stop-counting-359934.html

Jolie, BSN

6,375 Posts

Specializes in Maternal - Child Health.

The U.S. is not "incapable" of implementing government mandated, taxpayer funded health care. Its people are unwilling to do so, as evidenced by the lack of support for such initiatives by the majority of our voters and our elected officials.

I have no interest in continuing a discussion in which other posters claim opinions as facts and express disinterest in reading information I have offered to support my viewpoint.

Enjoy your debate.

allnurses Guide

herring_RN, ASN, BSN

3,651 Posts

Specializes in Critical care, tele, Medical-Surgical.

[color=#004276]memos to obama: john geyman on seizing the moment for national health insurance

[color=#333333]by john geyman, md

[color=#333333]tikkun magazine

[color=#333333]january-february 2009

[color=#333333]first off, congratulations to you and your party on your sweeping election results!

[color=#333333]together with a sizable majority of americans, i am again hopeful for the future of our country.

[color=#333333]my special concern, however, is for our failing health care system and how it is pricing health care beyond the reach of ordinary americans. our system has come to the point where none of the many incremental reforms will work. the business model of insurance has failed, and we need to rebuild the system on a social insurance model.

[color=#333333]let me be direct.

[color=#333333]although we have many dedicated health professionals, an abundance of the latest technologies, and many fine hospitals, health care has become just another commodity to be bought and sold in a deregulated market based on ability to pay, not medical need.

[color=#333333]as you well know, industry profits handsomely from the status quo, raking in money through insurance, pharmaceuticals, medical devices, and so on. industry has a war chest to defend itself and demonstrates its political power each time any new reform is brought up....

[color=#333333]http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/january/memos_to_obama_john.php

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