Does it bother CRNA's that MDA's get so much more...?

[ICU, RN, BSN, B.S.]

Hey guys,

I'm not a CRNA yet. I want to be. I just got hired in a MICU/SICU. I was just wondering if it bothered any CRNA's the fact that MDs who practice anesthesia get paid wayy more for doing the same thing? I know some hospitals/facilities require the MDA oversee the CRNA, but does that equate to a couple hundred K more?

I don't know...I just feel CRNA's are not compensated enough for the ENORMOUS amount of responsibility and knowledge they hold.

[MorgantonCRNA]

First of all: My previous post on this subject regarding pay etc.

Second of all: You are comparing apples to oranges Your PA gf HAS to have a MD supervising her and there are somethings she CANNOT do as outline by LAW.

CRNAs DO NOT have to have a MD supervising them and there is NOTHING an MDA can do that I cannot as outlined in the LAW of 17 states in this country. There is NOTHING out of my scope of practice as compared to an MDA providing anesthesia.

While I am glad your gf understand her role, you clearly do not understand mine.

[wtbcrna, MSN, DNP, CRNA]

How can it bother them?

They basically do half of their schooling--and want all the same pay ? .seems greedy. My girlfriend is a PA, and you know what, she understands with her role. She understands surgically they are some things she just cannot do, even though she has a lot of autonomy. She understood her limitations with being a non physician practitioner, She's happy leading but limiting to what she knows is her scope.

What an ignorant statement to make about CRNAs. It will now take a bare minimum of 8 years to become a CRNA with the average being more around 10-12 years (4 years for BSN, 1+years of critical care experience, and now all NA schools are moving to a minimum of 3 years). MDA training is 12 years. By any account that is not half. CRNAs at many places perform exactly the same job function as MDAs. The two are completely interchangeable. CRNAs can and do practice independently in every state.

Opt out has only to do with Medicare billing requirements and nothing else. It is easily circumvented at many facilities by a standardized form signed by the surgeon.

PAs and CRNAs are nothing alike. CRNAs have been providing anesthesia since before anesthesia was routinely used in hospitals now for over 140 years. The AANA existed decades before the ASA. Anesthesia is a nursing speciality the physicians have come to practice in not the other way around.

Just because it takes longer to educate someone to do the exact same job does not automatically entitle someone to higher pay or the ability to be bill more for their services. Anesthesia is the same no matter if it is MDA or CRNA giving it.

[Bluebolt]

What an ignorant statement to make about CRNAs. It will now take a bare minimum of 8 years to become a CRNA with the average being more around 10-12 years (4 years for BSN, 1+years of critical care experience, and now all NA schools are moving to a minimum of 3 years). MDA training is 12 years. By any account that is not half. CRNAs at many places perform exactly the same job function as MDAs. The two are completely interchangeable. CRNAs can and do practice independently in every state.

Opt out has only to do with Medicare billing requirements and nothing else. It is easily circumvented at many facilities by a standardized form signed by the surgeon.

PAs and CRNAs are nothing alike. CRNAs have been providing anesthesia since before anesthesia was routinely used in hospitals now for over 140 years. The AANA existed decades before the ASA. Anesthesia is a nursing speciality the physicians have come to practice in not the other way around.

Just because it takes longer to educate someone to do the exact same job does not automatically entitle someone to higher pay or the ability to be bill more for their services. Anesthesia is the same no matter if it is MDA or CRNA giving it.

Wow, so refreshing to hear logic and an informed opinion in the forum, so unusual. I would be very interested to know if there is anyone with a relevant position in the anesthesia field who could argue against his point with facts and logic.

If not, then it seems like he just laid down the closing argument.

[AndersRN]

What an ignorant statement to make about CRNAs. It will now take a bare minimum of 8 years to become a CRNA with the average being more around 10-12 years (4 years for BSN, 1+years of critical care experience, and now all NA schools are moving to a minimum of 3 years). MDA training is 12 years. By any account that is not half. CRNAs at many places perform exactly the same job function as MDAs. The two are completely interchangeable. CRNAs can and do practice independently in every state.

Opt out has only to do with Medicare billing requirements and nothing else. It is easily circumvented at many facilities by a standardized form signed by the surgeon.

PAs and CRNAs are nothing alike. CRNAs have been providing anesthesia since before anesthesia was routinely used in hospitals now for over 140 years. The AANA existed decades before the ASA. Anesthesia is a nursing speciality the physicians have come to practice in not the other way around.

Just because it takes longer to educate someone to do the exact same job does not automatically entitle someone to higher pay or the ability to be bill more for their services. Anesthesia is the same no matter if it is MDA or CRNA giving it.

When a LPN work for 5 years at then go RN school, the schooling to become an RN does not become 8 years. It still just 4 years... If a RN work for 10 years in ICU and then go to CRNA school, it take that RN 16-17 year to become and a CRNA, but the didactic portion to become a CRNA is still 6-7 years...

[Bluebolt]

When a LPN work for 5 years at then go RN school, the schooling to become an RN does not become 8 years. It still just 4 years... If a RN work for 10 years in ICU and then go to CRNA school, it take that RN 16-17 year to become and a CRNA, but the didactic portion to become a CRNA is still 6-7 years...

You're right about the LPN to RN part of that. 10 Years of being an LPN and 3 years RN doesn't make it 13 years to be an RN.

I would argue that the time required to be an ICU RN in a high acuity unit that requires bedside intubation, propofol and versed infusion (Anesthesia), assisting in central line and art line insertion and medication titrations based off hemodynamic interpretation and critical thinking is directly related to preparing for CRNA school. Much like how you are required to complete a residency as an MD before you are allowed to practice on your own. Residency isn't didactic but is certainly factored into the overall time it takes an MD to be proficient at practicing medicine. When people talk about how long it takes to be a physician they are definitely factoring in the non didactic residency.

All CRNA programs require at least one year of ICU full time before you can apply. Although most also require you to be CCRN certified which you can't even sit for the test until you have a full year of verified ICU experience so most who are accepted into the program have 2+ years practice. I'm not saying give a nurse with 10 years in the ICU credit for 10 years work towards CRNA but if the bare minimum to get accepted is around 2-3 years, you should fairly count that as credit towards time to achieve said goal.

Although even if you directly related university education time from start to finish between BSN prepared RN and then DNP CRNA to a biology undergrad who goes to Med School you'll find didactically to be about the same time. BSN programs require more credit hours than almost if not all other undergrad majors, look up the statistics. Mine required 4 years and 9 months full time even in the Summers (I took one Summer off for an internship). The CRNA DNP program I start in August will be 3 years full time with no breaks. 7 years and 9 months total including only time I'm paying tuition, what is med school, 8 years total.

Let's stop splitting hairs over these type things. I have lots of MD friends and we all work well together on an interdisciplinary team. We're all smart and valuable members of the healthcare team. I feel like I'm compensated well and am going into a specialty that I feel compensates even better. There is no need to belittle others in the advance practice field or attempt to prove they are somehow less than the MD/DO.

[AndersRN]

You're right about the LPN to RN part of that. 10 Years of being an LPN and 3 years RN doesn't make it 13 years to be an RN.

I would argue that the time required to be an ICU RN in a high acuity unit that requires bedside intubation, propofol and versed infusion (Anesthesia), assisting in central line and art line insertion and medication titrations based off hemodynamic interpretation and critical thinking is directly related to preparing for CRNA school. Much like how you are required to complete a residency as an MD before you are allowed to practice on your own. Residency isn't didactic but is certainly factored into the overall time it takes an MD to be proficient at practicing medicine. When people talk about how long it takes to be a physician they are definitely factoring in the non didactic residency.

All CRNA programs require at least one year of ICU full time before you can apply. Although most also require you to be CCRN certified which you can't even sit for the test until you have a full year of verified ICU experience so most who are accepted into the program have 2+ years practice. I'm not saying give a nurse with 10 years in the ICU credit for 10 years work towards CRNA but if the bare minimum to get accepted is around 2-3 years, you should fairly count that as credit towards time to achieve said goal.

Although even if you directly related university education time from start to finish between BSN prepared RN and then DNP CRNA to a biology undergrad who goes to Med School you'll find didactically to be about the same time. BSN programs require more credit hours than almost if not all other undergrad majors, look up the statistics. Mine required 4 years and 9 months full time even in the Summers (I took one Summer off for an internship). The CRNA DNP program I start in August will be 3 years full time with no breaks. 7 years and 9 months total including only time I'm paying tuition, what is med school, 8 years total.

Let's stop splitting hairs over these type things. I have lots of MD friends and we all work well together on an interdisciplinary team. We're all smart and valuable members of the healthcare team. I feel like I'm compensated well and am going into a specialty that I feel compensates even better. There is no need to belittle others in the advance practice field or attempt to prove they are somehow less than the MD/DO.

I was not trying to belittle any profession; I was pointing out a flaw logic when saying spending years working in ICU should count as part of CRNA school... Giving diprivan when someone tells you to give diprivan is not the same thing when you create a plan of care and decide a particular patient should get diprivan. Basically, you are just saying that if someone works in the ICU for 5 years and then become a CRNA, then it took that individual 12 years to earn that degree. That does not make much sense!

Residency is didactic (i.e. teaching). Without residency physicians can't practice medicine. Again, I have nothing against CRNA in particular. Au contraire, I believe NP would have more respect if they copy a page from CRNA.

[wtbcrna, MSN, DNP, CRNA]

When a LPN work for 5 years at then go RN school, the schooling to become an RN does not become 8 years. It still just 4 years... If a RN work for 10 years in ICU and then go to CRNA school, it take that RN 16-17 year to become and a CRNA, but the didactic portion to become a CRNA is still 6-7 years...

Okay, then the didactic portion to become an MDA is 4 years undergraduate, the first 2 years of medical school, and 3 years of residency for 9 years total of "didactic" type or specific training.

[AndersRN]

Okay, then the didactic portion to become an MDA is 4 years undergraduate, the first 2 years of medical school, and 3 years of residency for 9 years total of "didactic" type or specific training.

You don't think the 2-year clerkship in which these students have to take a shelf exam after every rotation and pass an OSCE is didactic!

[AndersRN]

Okay, then the didactic portion to become an MDA is 4 years undergraduate, the first 2 years of medical school, and 3 years of residency for 9 years total of "didactic" type or specific training.

I should also mention anesthesiology residency is 4 years if you did not know...

[wtbcrna, MSN, DNP, CRNA]

You don't think the 2-year clerkship in which these students have to take a shelf exam after every rotation and pass an OSCE is didactic!

No...

[wtbcrna, MSN, DNP, CRNA]

I should also mention anesthesiology residency is 4 years if you did not know...

No, it is 1 year internship and 3 years residency.

[AndersRN]

No, it is 1 year internship and 3 years residency.

I guess internship does not count!